I agree with this. But I would not agree any less were you to substitute for religion the word patriotism, or nationalism, or culture at large, or even, in some spots of the world, a footy match. Or even certain businesses. Think Mafia.


PS Oh, and I am not sure too many people here would willingly die for their beliefs of what DMT is or is not, though I may be wrong.

""re·li·gion
[ri-lij-uhn]
noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.""

Insofar as the DMT culture being a religion, and specifically the Nexus being a virtual space fomenting such a religion, one of the reasons I spend time here conversing and debating is that there are a fair number of intelligent people here discussing all the varying ways we can perceive and imagine "the cause, nature and purpose of the universe", including, ironically, this very thread. And there are a fair number present here, hardly a minority if it is one, who assert they believe there is no cause or purpose to the universe.

"Especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies"

I am assuming, in quoting this, you are meaning "entities". While I think those here who share beliefs in the notion of "entities" are the most vocal, I would be surprised if they make up a majority. And, again, anecdotal conjecture - I see no formal links between people regarding the cause nature or purpose of these "entities". So again, diversity of belief, and not a "specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects".


There was a poll regarding this subject a while back, and the varied answers regarding people's systems of belief - from atheist to christian to pantheist and animist and a bunch of ists, ians and ologies with which i was not even familiar - demonstrated to me that this is actually one of the places with the LEAST consensus regarding matters spiritual, material and theistic that I know of!

Do you really believe, AlberKlloyd, that there is one dominant set of beliefs here? If there is, thanks to the diligence of the Traveler and Endlessness and many of the mods, it would be a rather open and flexible iteration of rational materialism, no?

Cheers,

JBArk

Snozz, i have not dismissed the experiences of others, you have not demonstrated that my experiences are atypical, and you have not once ever considered my experiences or views as valid and have consistently dismissed an opposed them in every opinion related thread you and i have ever participated in, and despite your insistence it is still clear that your issue has always been personal for whatever reason.

Regarding the topic at hand, an important facet of my position is that this religion is undergoing codification, not that it is fully formed or has an established creed, but that such things are developing.

It is incorrect to say that my observations about this invalidate any experience. If anything they affirm that DMT use can be spiritual, though there is no claim that it must be, it is as valid as any religious experience when approached as such.

Likewise it has an iconography, music, testimony, congregation, leaders, fanatics and fringe members etc, all very much like with a religion. Advocates of the religion surround themselves with the symbolism, they read the books, they listen to the hymns, they partake of thr sacrament as such.

That does not say that all approach it this way, that is a straw man of sorts. That is to say however that it is increasingly identifiable as such for many and that as a religion despite being new and inchoate, that it is valid as a religious practice and belief set and that this potentially has the capacity to legally legitimize DMT use in certain states at the least via affirmation of spiritual intent or belief in terms of DMT and potentially other psychedelics.

Those who see this as a dismissal are demonstrating an unwillingness or and inability to consider it at all. They just reject it without even considering it in a hypothetical sense.

Yes. It is my belief that there are common beliefs ( not a choate set) that are held by a majority of members.
That does not say there is not diversity or that strict sets exist, but i am asking that it be considered that sets are developing, and not just here but in general.

Identifying something as an outlier is not a negation, nor is it a judgement.

It is simply an observation.

Edit: I'm sorry if you think this is somehow personal. The only issue I'm taking here is with your ideas/claims. I honestly don't know what more I can do to convince you it's not personal (short of not engaging with your ideas). If you want me to stop engaging with your ideas, just say so, and I'm happy to comply.

Sets do not a religion make.

But I see your logic

I think you are taking what snoz says personally, and taking a step back and reading the back and forth between you too thats exactly what it looks like.

Also i do not agree with your assessment that there is an emergent religion. No one agrees completely on anything in its entirety. This congregation of Dmt users would be more akin to a vast group of equally different religious members that all agree that god exists but cant agree on anything else.

We all agree that dmt is powerful and that it is unique in some way. But after that no one completely agrees on much of anything else.

I think your viewing a gathering of people who have a similar interest as a religious cult incorrectly. This is just a chess club, and everyone has their own strategy. Dmt is the chess board, the game hyperspace, the pieces our flaws and achievements. Although there is no winner so this analogy falls short.

Also, i think people are kind of missing on a topic. Your experiences. From what i have read it isnt necessarily your experiences that are different, but your outlook on them. You said it yourself that you have been there seen that, but you see it as a subjective dose. I really don't see this as far out of the norm as it is being displayed

Aren't you calling "belief" something that for many people is rather "insight"?

Given the diversity of views of the cosmos you can find among DMT users (and why DMT? Why not all tryptamines, or all indole alkaloids, or all psychedelics?) that common ground you postulate stretches so thin it barely deserves to be called religion, imo. Would you call perennial philosophy a religion?

Thanks for addressing that question, but you missed quit a lot of text above it.

(and do you agree or disagree with the omitted part of the quote: "If there is, thanks to the diligence of the Traveler and Endlessness and many of the mods, it would be a rather open and flexible iteration of rational materialism, no? "

But now we are getting somewhere. Can you provide a list of "common beliefs...that are held by a majority of members."? And which "sets" exist? As inchoate as they may be, they must be what you are basing this on.

Cheers,

JBArk

These are good points.

And i do not negate these points when I consider this--heavy metal could be said to have iconography, music, testimony, congregation, leaders, fanatics and fringe members etc. Most any sub-culture could. To varying degrees, perhaps. Role playing games, body modification, hot-rod cars, political activist organizations--there's a lot of sub-cultures out there. Remember I just used the word CULTure. However, most sub cultures that you might care to name do not have a sacrament so powerful nor so reliable as dmt.

Where is your heresy? I do not believe any heresy has been presented within this thread--but you have asserted yourself as a heretic. How so?

Apologies for not including member names in the quotes for my responses...


Don't many faithful people involved in a religion consider their beliefs to be insights gained from experience?



1, in no religious congregation do all the members agree completely, this is evidenced by internal dialog in any religion, thus the point seems ineffectual for invalidating a concept that a religion is being codified and moreover; promulgated.


Agreed, but most religions have them.


Perception and doctrine.
Inquiry into psychedelics tends to, for many, lead to DMT, largely through the works of McKenna and the evolution of the claims associated with the work of Strassman.
What other psychedelic has received as much press labeling it as "spiritual"?

Consider even the emphasis of this site, can you find an analogous site that is dedicated largely to a single molecule, like mescaline, LSD or another? I cannot.

One question worth asking is why do people find the idea of a DMT religion forming so upsetting, distasteful or disturbing?



No, I quoted the full definition of religion that I am working from, however that aspect of the quote is not relevant to my argument.

However there is a part of it I wish to address:
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

consider this poll here:
https://www.dmt-nexus.me...&m=146793#post146793

The two highest results were 18% for:
I still act very ethically and to the same degree.
and 61% for:
I'm now more ethical, to a healthy level.

In this case the majority of people people who voted in the poll agreed with the claim that DMT informed, improved or affected their morality in a positive way. This is quite reminiscent of religion.

I am not making a claim that DMT users tend to make theological claims or share a specific cosmology.

Lets look at some other poll results though, and note that I am aware that these polls are small sample sizes, they merely reflect small groups and subsets willing to address the poll, which is a minority of registered users.



The two highest rated answers:
Hyperspace is a real dimension, and its entities are conscious beings. 27 %
Hyperspace is a dimension within the mind, opening certain pathways. 51 %

It should be clear that there is an indication of common beliefs held by a majority.
So far in terms of these small groups we have 1 DMT informs or affects morality, and 2 DMT allows access to mental dimensions "opening" certain pathways. One could easily interpret both of these responses as indicating a concept that DMT provides insights affecting behavior and or personal transformation. Often we encounter in religions the claim by those who have faith in the religion that it improved their lives, made them better people etc, indeed this is often at the heart of their having faith, in this case faith in the transformative aspects of DMT, far from invalidating their experiences to say that this conforms to religious behavior, it is clear that these experiences are capable of being individually transformative and beneficial. In a way one might say that many users experience a form of rebirth, a form of psychedelic born again aspect. The import of this is largely emotional, and it is common enough to be reinforced on a group level by shared consensus and experience.

Now while some of us certainly view DMT as an ambiguous tool able to have positive and negative effects in connotation, one of the central tenants to the DMT religion is that DMT is beneficial, not that it is ambiguous or neutral. And while we can identify a range of beliefs here and elsewhere about it, I would like you to consider that the majority of users view it as beneficial, that this is a shared aspect of belief. Likewise as the central aspect of the DMT religion, DMT must be viewed as beneficial, much like the members of any religion view their central figure or aspect as positive or beneficial, this is more than saying they like or enjoy it, often experiences viewed as beneficial are seen as intense and trying, not easy per say, but also that this intensity helps achieve resolution from the experience, this sets it apart from fans of say, a heavy metal band or a specific artist, the central object of the religion is personal benefit and or improvement, while in terms of fan culture the central object is enjoyment of say, a band for example.

here is another poll:

the two most agreed with answers again:

Higher beings - Aliens, beings of higher conciousness or other dimnesions 45 %
Subconcious manifestations 43 %

In terms of diversity we have two concepts apparent, however they both have a common aspect, in terms of the first one, DMT allows access to beings that are ordinarily inaccessible, and insight is often viewed as resulting, in the second DMT allows access to ":manifestations" that as subconscious are again ordinarily inaccessible, and insight is often viewed as resulting. So despite a difference in views about the nature of the experience, it is feasible to note that the majority of responses indicates a belief that DMT allows access to ordinarily inaccessible states or realms and that this results in insights and or transformative experiences that are viewed as beneficial.

Here is another poll:

the highest rated answer is:
CLEARLY encountered; I think They exist 65 %

In this case 65% of those who responded said that they had encountered entities and that they existed! Note that this existence does not include a claim about what they are, or where they originate from, it merely involves the concept that they exist and are able to be encountered.

In all of these cases the responses to the polls was not particularly large, often around 20-50 people. However they appear to illustrate that at least among the respondents there are shared belief sets. Part of my point is that those beliefs correspond to the perception of insights as well as transformative states that are largely viewed as having spiritual connotations or relevance and that the experience informs or transforms morality. This correlates strongly with a religious community, and I believe that DMT religion is a legitimate religion that is being gradually organized and involves shared beliefs, arising from common perceptions, influenced both by experience and doctrine.

Without getting too involved in the discussion, since I haven't fully read the whole flow of the conversation, it seems that Albert's comments regarding increasing 'spiritualization', for want of a better word, are more aimed at DMT and the culture surrounding it rather than the DMT Nexus. I stand to be corrected, but on reading the posts so far I notice that some people seem to be misreading this aspect of his argument.

Note additional points:
1, a cult is a form of religious subset, I make no claim that the DMT religion is a cult or that it meets the definition of a cult. I do not agree that it is a cult.
2, religion is social, it is not individual.

It can be considered that few religions originate with an attempt to create a religion.
They tend to evolve out of social phenomena regarding shared interests relevant to spiritual pursuits or development and tend to be slow to arise, they are with few exceptions not deliberately founded. Those doctrines that eventually emerge are not proposed as doctrine but emerge as opinions of one or more people that resonate within the group and come to be regarded as true.

Despite historically correlating with tools of social control, religions generally have at their center and origin the ideal of personal transformation in a beneficial manner, whether that be termed salvation, enlightenment, transcendence etc, in ever case the concept is the betterment of the individual, with some noteworthy exceptions. The concept tends top be such that humanity through the use of a method, doctrine, covenant or sacred act may overcome the negative aspects of it's potential and nature and embrace the positive aspects. This largely sets religion apart from other cultural and social phenomena sharing beliefs, iconography and central figures.

In a way DMT has been "othered" more than psychedelics tend to be, in this it has been viewed by many as distinctive categorically for its efficacy and transformative ability.

https://www.dmt-nexus.me/About.aspx
Belief set, deified or sanctified figures and doctrine:


I would like to ask those of you whose minds are truly open to consider that DMT is involved with a legitimate and developing spiritual movement meeting the definitions of a religion.
I would like to ask you to consider that regardless of if you feel this way about DMT yourself insofar as considering it sacred, that many do consider it sacred and beneficial.
I would like you to consider that the religious aspect of this does not invalidate the experience or mean that it is less sacred (or more subjectively) but that this religiosity is no less legitimate than any extant religion.

I would also like you to consider that as a social phenomena there are going to be individual and social behaviors associated with this that are corollary to human nature, these aspects of behavior and nature do not undermine the legitimacy of this emergent religion, but do predispose even unwitting adherents to the faith towards specific behaviors in terms of their belief systems both as a group and individuals.

It is not a cult, and in no way is the observation of it as an emergent religion a subversion of the legitimacy of experience or opinion from such experience. Likewise in no way does a diversity of belief in the social community undermine the coherent aspects of it's emergent doctrine and faith based practices. There is nothing wrong with having faith in the sanctity and transformative spiritual power of DMT.

However I would also like to ask you to consider that there is nothing wrong with not being a member of this faith, that having a view that contradicts tenants of this faith is not an affront to individuals or the group, however note that as a group phenomena adherents will inevitably appeal to the group as a means to reject the views of those who do not share the faith.

I'll answer that question with:
Because the very notion of religion is upsetting, distasteful and disturbing in some ways.
(apologies extended to religious folks...this is just one opinion)

Since recorded history and beyond, religion has been responsible for some of the most heinous atrocities that mankind has ever inflicted on each other.
The very word conjures up dogma and narrow minded rigidity. Sure there are good things that arise within such doctrines but hindsight can teach us of dire consequences that need not be repeated.
Perhaps a new word needs to be substituted for religion...one that has more benign connotations.

'Phylum' perhaps.

Perhaps this is connected to the question you make:



Cyb somewhat beat me to it, but...

Most likely that wouldn't happen if Religion as a word didn't have the negative connotations it generally has. And I'm guessing a lot of users who approach psychedelics in a thoughtful way, or as an expression of a deep need, have their issues with dominant religions and reject certain dogmas, or at least question them.

In a context where "religion" would be as emotionally neutral a word as it is in dictionaries, using the word would be easier. When religion does not make people automatically think of worshipping and followers, seeing people who believe because of their deep personal insights should be easy. I don't think that's the norm in the major religions in our society.

People taking issue with the term religion and personal offense does not do much to counter my proposal that an emergent religion is codifying.



We are mammals after all. All social groups suffer from manifestations of human nature(s) that are viewed as detrimental.

It is not "religion" that perpetrates atrocities, but social groups, they may be religious, nationalistic, improvised, townships, tribes etc, there is nothing setting religion apart from this manifestation of human nature on a group level.

I do not tend to have emotional responses to the use of specific words unless in specific contexts that are meant to be deliberately offensive. As an autistic man I do not understand how some people demonize words and terms. It would appear that much of the rejection of the concepts I share is due not to the concepts themselves, but to the terms and words I employ to present such concepts. This explains why so many attempt to counter the term,s and not the arguments and in doing so do not actually consider or debate the concepts themselves but just reject the terms outright and fail to demonstrate or support their rejection with a tenable or meaningful argument and thus appear to me to be taking personal offense, in this case to terminology and specific words.

At the risk of offending many of you, if you have a problem with the term religion, or the concept of religion: grow up.
some of you are reminding me of people who take offense when they hear a swear word, or see two men kissing in public. that you respond with negative emotion to the use of a word or display is literally your problem, not mine, and if the basis of your rejection of the word and concept of religion is emotional, instead of a demonstration that the term lacks aptitude, then i can only consider such offense to be petty and reactionary. I am not going to twist my terminology to be politically correct for those who object to the concept and word religion.

Albert, it's not just a matter of political correction or personal immaturity. The whole meaning of a word it's not in the dictionary, but deep entwined in each part of our culture, and that's besides the biographical, personal bias people may have.

As soon as you talk about a real process and not an abstract, you cannot really separate the dancer from the dance. You cannot exonerate religious doctrines from any fault in the atrocities committed by its followers.

I have had heated online discussions when trying to defend the concept of religious belief in front of hard line atheists, people I had pretty much agreed with a few years ago. I understand how frustrating it can be to see people projecting into words meaning you don't share, but I think you are closer to the ideal than to the current state of affairs.

While I understand what you, Albert, are saying, I think you're painting the picture with incredibly broad strokes here. The majority of users of DMT I've interacted with, both online and in everyday life, tend to be less inclined towards the acceptance of one fixed belief system in the way that you're implying.

I'm not saying that there isn't a percentage of DMT users, whether on this site or not, who have developed the belief that DMT is somehow inherently spiritual or that it gives one access to their own version of "God", but I disagree that it would be anywhere near enough to constitute being labelled a "DMT Religion". In fact, I'd say it'd be more accurate to refer to the subset of DMT users who view this in religious terms as a cult, contrary to your last post:

cult
Line breaks: cult
Pronunciation: /kʌlt /
NOUN
1a system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object:
the cult of St Olaf

1.1a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or as imposing excessive control over members:
a network of Satan-worshipping cults

1.2a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular thing:
the cult of the pursuit of money as an end in itself

2a person or thing that is popular or fashionable among a particular group or section of society:
the series has become a bit of a cult in the UK

Would it not be more correct then to say that there is "DMT cult" developing where the molecule itself is venerated? I've yet to see an agreed upon pantheon of "hyperspace", or of any fundamental beliefs relating to the purpose and usage of DMT. I suspect that DMT actually has the potential to contribute to the deconstruction of organized belief systems, not for one to be built around it.

Everything about the DMT experience could easily be described as "spiritual", but that in itself is just the most convenient label which conveys the actuality of the experience to another person in linguistic terms. Some people don't have the vocabulary, imagination or experiential reference points to describe it in other terms; others are completely different and describe it in psychological or neurological terms. Would you argue that there's a new branch of psychiatry developing in the West because of studies on tryptamines in recent years or of the increasing discussion of the topic in terms of neurochemistry?

Maybe I'm missing something, and I'm sure you'll correct me if that's the case, but your whole argument just looks like you're defending your own beliefs with regards to the non-religious or non-spiritual aspects of DMT. Nobody has said you can't disbelieve in machine elves and all that hoodoo. I certainly don't and, in many, many, many DMT experiences, have never encountered any "others" which didn't turn out to be the anthropomorphization of some sub-conscious process or perceptual fabrication. Insightful, yes, but upon examination they have all been found to have no inherent existence beyond my own imputations.

I suppose my personal distaste stems from the following. These are from your OP



This makes it sound like people are dubiously conned into adopting certain beliefs via the shady mechanisms of love, peace or awe, and yet while I think you may have accurately noted a correlation of such emotions being present in DMT experiences, it remains just that - a correlation. If people experience these emotions on DMT, I think it has less to do with groupthink and more to do with commonalities and tendencies of the DMT experience.



I would disagree that there is this sense of organized religion. It becomes borderline insulting when you insinuate that DMT users (aka pretty much everyone responding to this thread) have formulated their beliefs not on their own accord of personal evidence, but rather by lazily being influenced by the public behavior of others. If people vehemently disagree with what you're saying, it doesn't have to be on the basis of 'that's what happens in religions' or an intolerance for some belief set, but simply people will be vocal about their disagreements when it runs contrary to their personal experiences.

What I find distasteful are sweeping overgeneralizations. It's as if to say that everyone who has a spiritual experience with DMT has done so only because they are aware of its spiritual potential. Because DMT is actually relatively unknown in the public eye compared to other substances, it should be noted that there are many Nexians (and Nexians in potential) that are completely unaware of some of DMT's more profound effects, only to be smacked in the face with them during an initial experience. Take the Ganesha phenomenon for example. In this case a variety of newbies encountered the same deity whom they might not necessarily have known to existed, much less in the contextually appropriate manner of being an initiator, and yet they share this commonality. I find it unlikely that group mentality has played into this specific phenomenon, and the same can be extrapolated to "spirituality" or other commonalities.

I would agree with you that there are no doubt some who do fit the description as you outline it - in other words: of course there are going to be some attracted to DMT based on its spiritual merit, and yes their experiences and interpretations can and are informed at times by others; however, that would be to discount all of the instances where this is not true. It seems as though you are trying to fit DMT into this rigid box of "organized religion" if for no other reason than to legitimize its use under Freedom of Religion, and while many of us would like to see it legalized and legitimized, that framing the situation as it stands, as an emergent religion simply comes across as "loose" and inaccurate in my opinion.

Lastly this is a minor point, but



The Shroomery and psilocybin/psilocin