Hi guys,
I'm trying to understand the differences between Caapi and the harmine / THH relationship with Aya. I think I understand correctly that Caapi is only one ingredient in the Aya brew, is this correct? Caapi has harmine and THH right? What needs to be added to Caapi to make true Aya? The reason I'm asking is because I found a source for the following:

Banisteriopsis caapi 100X Vine Alkaloid Extract
as well as:
Psychotria viridis 'Chacruna' seeds

If I combine these two components do I get true Aya? If so, is the 100x caapi extract wise to use, or is it better just to use powdered cappi vine? What about the caapi 100x extract on it's own? Does that produce effects? How about the Chacruna seeds on their own? Do they produce pleasant effects?

Sorry for all the questions. I'm a spiceophyle who knows very little about aya, but have been very intrigued with the Aya reports I've read. Lastly, how does Aya compare to spice?
Thanks in advance for your input and wisdom!!

Peace!

B. Caapi usually contains mostly Harmine, almost as much THH, and only a little bit of Harmaline.
Plus DMT from usually either Chacruna leaves, or Chaliponga leaves.
I make Ayahusca caps that are exactly like the real thing using:
45mg - DMT fumarate
45mg - tetrahydroharmine
55mg - harmine
5mg - harmaline

Some curendero's use a few other plants in their Ayahuasca, but that is usually more of a personal preference thing.

I highly suggest brewing some traditional Aya from Caapi vine & chacruna leaves before trying out the extracts as they can sometimes lack the "personality" that a true brew has. It will also help you to figure out a ratio of DMT & harmalas that gets you the same effects.

BTW, those chacruna seeds will work fine if your willing to plant them, grow them & wait for the bush to grow some leaves for you.

WS

Excellent! Thanks for the crisp and concise information warrensaged! So, I presume you extract your own harm elements? Assuming I don't want to wait for my SEEDS to grow, I wonder if I can find a source on the chacruna leaves... Or I can just use my spice fum as you suggest. Is Aya pretty amazing? Along the lines of pure DMT, or is it mellower and stretched out?

Ayahuasca is quite a different animal altogether in my exp.
The pure DMT visuals are there but its not the same, I don't know how to explain it really.

Cappi tea does have a Psychedelic effect of its own, so there is more going on than a 4 hour DMT experience.

I'll P<M you with some good vendors.

WS

TRUE Ayahuasca ONLY has the following ingredients-

B. caapi
Psychotria viridis
Diplopterys cabrerana

PM me if you need a vendor.

I though that the vine was ayahuasca and that the rest are just admixtures that vary from region to region.

Hence "vine of the soul".

That is correct, a traditional brew consists of Cappi vine & Chacruna or Chaliponga, but different curendero's use a number of other plants to accent, or customize their brew depending on what the ceremony has been called for.
Some use Pin Pin, some even put a little Datura in there.
I have a recipe from peru that contains a high amount of Brunfelsia grandiflora leaves.
Here is another:

Norma Panduro:
(Iquitos, Peru. 38 years an ayahuasquero)
3 1/2 Kg (fresh weight) of Banisteriopsis caapi vine "ayahuasca",
1/2 Kg of Psychotria viridis leaves "chacruna",
3 leaves of Brugmansia suaveolens "Toe",
4 flowers of Calliandra angustifolia "Bobinzana",
10-20 leaves of Nicotiana tabacum "tabaco",
Also added are 5-10 drops of perfume.

In fact I have a friend in Peru right now who just spent three day doing Ayahuasca ceremonies with Don Luis (a relatively famous curendero from Peru), his ayahuasca consisted of 5 different plants in varying amounts!! Unfortunately he doesn't speak Spanish so he did not recognize all of the plant names when he was out collecting ingredients with Don Luis.

All you need is B.Caapi + Chacruna (or Chaliponga) for a common brew though...

WS

Thanks guys! I'll be taking you up on the PM offers. I think I'm going to try the Caapi on it's own first, just to understand it, and then move forward with additional elements. Things are becoming much clearer now! You guys are awesome!

I’ve always wondered why some shamans did that. Now I know. SWIM has experimented with 1-3 seeds of Datura stramonium (a completely safe dose) in combination with oral bufotenine, and then yesterday in combination with mescaline. In both cases it potentiated the effects. In the case of mescaline the potentiation produced the most beautiful most euphoric psychedelic trip SWIM ever had. In the case of oral bufotenine, it completely blocked the nausea of it.

The anti-nausea effects of small safe microdoses of Datura will produce ayahuasca that is purgeless, and it will also potentiate the effects of both the caapi and the DMT. All you need is 1-3 seeds of Datura stramonium to block the nausea from oral bufotenine (which always causes nausea without the seeds), so I’m sure that would work for ayahuasca as well.

I just finished reading your Mesciline/Datura report, very interesting indeed!! Sounds wonderful!!
Was it a visual dose or just physical? I've not tried any variation of mescalin, just never crossed paths...

Datura kind of scares me.
The flowers are so incredibly beautiful though!

What you say about it reducing or removing the nausea in Ayahuasca makes a lot of sense.
When I've seen it listed in Ayauhasca recipes before, I guess I figured it was more for the "door left open for a few days" effect that so many Datura reports mention. Sounded a bit too much for me personally...
But what you say makes more sense.

Does 1-3 Datura seeds have any effect, positive or negative, by itself?

Idtravlr, I sent you some info in a PM, did you get that?

WS

Correct...

I know they add all kinds of stuff but I would say true, pure Ayahuasca for use as an entheogens consists ONLY of Caapi, Psychotria and Diplopterys... maybe Cat's Claw and a couple other traditional ingredients, here is a recipe for a brew-

50-75g Caapi
33g Psychotria
13g Diplopterys
13g Cat's Claw



Right!

With hyoscyamine you need at least 1.0 mg to have any mental effects at all, and at that dose it's just very minor and not at all hallucinogenic. You need to far exceed 1.5 mg of hyoscyamine for it to be hallucinogenic.

3 8 mg seeds can have as much as 0.168 mg if they are super potent seeds.

So no. Maybe a very slight feeling of stimulation for about 30 minutes would be felt if taken alone, that's all. There are no mental effects at all at that dose when taken on their own.

OK, I can return the favor here and contribute a bit. In my earlier days I did a lot of research and a small amount of experimentation with Datura. The anti-nausea thing makes complete sense. Datura contains the chemical Scopolamine (initially believed to be the primary psychoactive chemical in Datura, but has more recently been proved to only be a partial component and not primary). Scopolamine used to be the active drug used in the old prescription motion sickness patches. These patches worked very well, but were discontinued (in the Scopolamine form) due to unpredictable effects on users, including hallucinations and delirium in the most severe cases. Aside from that, this explains why the Datura seeds act as an anti nauseant with the brew...

I have personally eaten as many as 10 Datura seeds in one dose. What I experienced was a very moderate sense of well being. My understanding is that the seeds are not the most potent part of the plant however, and are one of the safest parts to experiment with. The leaves are what most people use for a strong dose (made into tea), and the roots can be one of the most potent parts in a mature plant.

-idt

Interesting. I have got some Datura (Toe) leaves atm. Considering adding a pinch to my next Aya brew... should I be cautious??