aliendreamtime

Beautifully said...


Much Peace and Compassion

The stategy that I promote is this: behave (as much as you reasonably can) as if it was 100 years ago. Use a hand powered drill and hand saws when you have to build. Shave with a straight razor and natural soap or olive oil, rather than plastic razors and shave cream. Grow your own food, make stuff yourself, permaculture and self relience...100 years ago everyone was organic gardening, off-grid, no car, natural fiber clothes. Make exceptions where nessesary.


This strategy will possibly stave off our various appocalypses/alter then into easier transition time ~and/or~ kinda prepares you survive and help others survive the various catastrophes taht will befall us the minute we can't get our petrol fix no' mo'

Agreed. Obviously we must sustain ourselves yet so many of us are disconnected from our source of food. I feel that modern agriculture is the very root cause for humanity becoming disconnected from the planet, thus leading to many if not all of our current day problems. We NEED a food revolution to create the foundation for a new way of life. Get involved with permaculture, take a class, experiment on your own, just learn the practice of growing food by any means. This is a valuable skill to learn if we are to survive the coming phases of transition. And besides that, it's extremely fulfilling

Permaculture :idea: Me like

Thanks Aegle...I may have stolen that haha its not my own genious.

Jamie:

"how the hell do people NOT think about it"

I think you know the anwser to this. If one has taken the medicine he/she may realize the earth speaks. Its always talking to everyone, but the people produced by our culture dont have the ability to listen. Thats where the Sacred Plants come in. They clean our senses that have been premolded by our culture to IGNORE this communication. Unfortunately most people just dont use them, and its no coincidence - because they are illegal. Its no coincidence they are illegal either. Like you this is going through my mind all the time. At this point I can only hope for the best, ask the Gaian mind how to help, and do my best to fulfill its requests, and hint to others how to find my this voice of reason.

I think I'm preaching to the choir with this one, but look at the behavior that results from pharmaceutical drugs compared to that which results from Sacred Plants. Its Maddenning!

Further more, Cosmic Playground ,you are completely right. The food is at the basis of this. Some 'foods' are more effective at jolting people awake, others are better for retaining and sustaining that "awakeness." One thing is for sure, we [b]came/[b] from the plants... they called us animals into being...we cannot live without their spirit.

Jamie, thanks for clarifying...I thought some of those comments seemed at odds with views that you've expressed in the past. I hear you loud and clear...this is one of (if not THE) most important issue(s) of our time and people seem more than happy to actively ignore it or actively fight against/silence people who try to bring it into the public eye to a greater degree. It's disgusting.

Another thought, as the thread has progressed: I think permaculture is great stuff...but one of the things about permaculture (as with any system) is that it requires inputs to yield continual outputs and as the second law of thermodynamics states, any closed loop system will experience entropy and wind down over time. Given this restriction, people who predict that we can continue to live as we do know if we add permaculture communities into the industrialized mix seem to miss the fact that the whole range of inputs has costs...that using produced fertilizers has one effect as an external source of nutrients (manufacture, waste, production costs, etc.) and using "waste" such as dead leaves or chicken poo from someone else robs the area where those things were taken from of the potential nutrients (granted, at the present moment all of that might be going to waste where it is, so using it for permaculture makes sense...but in a truly "sustainable model", that would not be). I'm not knocking permaculture by any means and I think it can/will go a long way in allowing for a transition...but that's just it, to me, it can only serve as a tool for transition, rather than an actual solution for the myriad of interwoven environmental prblems.

Snozzleberry, I think your not completely understanding permaculture. i've often thought about the thermodynamic feasibility of it.

You just make your compost pile (waste from cooking etc) basically the floor of your permaculture garden. At the same time, you actively trim the growth in your garden to fertilize even further. Ultimately the processing of human phecies (yep I said it) back into fertilizers would have to be incorporated to make it a perfect energy cycle. Ideally, this would work directly from a septic system.

And dont forget the magic of photosynthesis. Sunlight is the energy plants use to synthesize water and CO_2_ into carbohydrates-biomass. All of these- water, sunlight, and CO_2_ are in the atmosphere, not the ground. This biomass is always being produced as new stuff. Sure the degredation of plants help to cycle nutrients, but thats the fundamental basis of permaculture - to choose specific plants which are symbiotic in their nutrient cycles. For instance, a plant that needs a high amount of nitrogen will only be planted near a leguminous plant, which helps fixate nitrogen into the soil instead of using it. One plants wasted nutrients are vital to another's, and vice versa, much like the way we use oxygen for cellular respiration and procude CO_2_ as a biproduct, meanwhile plants undergo photosynthesis, which uses CO_2_ and creates oxygen.

Furthermore, think about what percent of a given plant by mass is the actual fruit that you would be taking away from the 'ecological system' (permaculture garden). It is very small, and of that small percent, say mayb 20% of its mass which is incredibly generous, only a small percentage of that percentage of its mass are nutrients critical for growth. The rest is mostly carbon, oxygen, and hydrogen, in the form of sugars (carbohydrates).

Besides, even if it isnt perfect, it can be improved upon and its INNUMERABLY better than mass agriculture.

The most important part about the permaculture idea I think is that its a simple project that will get people into the mindset of taking responsibility via direct action and reward them for doing so, setting the stage for further concern for their environment.

There are lots of articles on it and I'm sure you could learn more on youtube. Use David Holmgren as a keyword, he is the founder of this practice.

Oh yea...the point of me coming here. I just watched the 11th hour. Its free on Xfinity under free movies. Good flick, very well put together with lots of good sources. I suggest y'all check it out.

Is there any chance we could keep this conversation going? I mean, it hasn't lost its importance...



Any updates on advice from the Gaian mind? Anyone else asking the plants what to do? How to organise? How to resist?

Snozzleberry, have your thoughts developed any?



And this...



I find myself wondering: if people on the Nexus don't engage seriously and at length and in earnest about the coming collapse, and how to understand it and comport to it, then perhaps humanity is just going to go out without a whimper.

You bring these things up, and you are considered a crazy person. I don't know what to do. No one really thinks it's a serious issue around here. There are no organizations in this area that I know of. It's just inertia and ennui around here. I live in the southern united states though... probably the most inhospitable place for this kind of thinking. Our city is toying with the idea of selling natural parks in the middle of the city that host endangered species... I oppose this, and make it known, but that is the prevailing attitude in this "liberal" city that is run by alcoholic (both of our last two mayors have DUIs).



I've written this part of the world off, you can't win here.

No I haven't read that book... but I do care...

I'm frantic busy trying to figure out/ learn about/ pay for/ implement

1)growing & preserving as much of my own food as possible
2)generating my own electrical power cleanly
3)ditching my day job working for the owning class - whilst still paying my remaining bills
4)raising my kids to value humanity over the paper-chase all the while battling a media and culture that hold ignorance and material possession highly while profaning the seeking of meaningful truth


But it looks like a great read an I'll definitely put it on my list

Preamble

Oh boy...I forgot about this

So first, allow me to say, over the last two years I became aware of several troubling things relating to two of the authors of DGR as well as the organization that sprung up around the book/ideas. Jensen and Keith both expressed some horrifically transphobic sentiments (repeatedly) that were nothing less than reprehensible. Initially, as some of the various chapters of DGR attempted to distance themselves from these statements/feelings, the "leadership" of DGR attempted to clamp down and take direct control of the organization. As I spend most of my time organizing in anarchist/anti-authoritarian circles, this hierarchical/authoritarian tendency completely turned me off.

It's also worth mentioning that I went to see a book tour by one of the DGR chapters and was somewhat alarmed by some of the (apparently) inadvertent racism presented in some of the thinking, along with some poor analysis of the green scare.

That said, I still find much of the analysis of where we are/what we are facing to be valid, even if the resistance structure proposed and DGR as an organizing body are problematic.
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Body

Chadaev, you asked if we could keep this conversation going...do you have anything in mind?

I still stand behind the statements of mine that you quoted...I still see the need for biocentric, deep ecology-minded resistance.

I'd put it this way...I find myself drawn to psychedelics precisely because of their effects on my mind. I enjoy experiencing these altered states that lead to infinite questions about life, the universe, and everything. I enjoy the timeless ecstasy...and I can at least welcome the walloping directives when I need to work on my stuff.

In a sentence...what could be more meaningful? What could be more important or central to the human experience than the examination of these experiences, emotions, themes, memes, and archetypes that seemingly reverberate into our social interactions and daily lives in myriads of unfathomable ways?

For me, the psychedelic experience presents the (more or less) immaterial realms of greatest importance, while the natural ecosystems present the material realms of greatest importance. It seems only natural that the two areas should serve to reinforce each other...to have components that interweave, enmesh, and inform each other.

Part of the reason I made this thread initially was that, imo, there is a lot of lip service and magical thinking within the "psychedelic community" regarding these issues. There's belief in "phase shifts", "great awakenings", the perfection of the moment, etc. Imo, all of these modes of engaging with environmental disaster are both naive and privileged and don't actually engage with the reality of the problem, its immediacy and severity.

There are really difficult questions to ask and engage with that (almost understandably) no one wants to talk about. For example, what is the body count of a hospital? How many people are killed in order to build, equip, and run a modern hospital? This isn't a crazy question, imo, but I bet a number of eyebrows went up after reading it.

But seriously, to manufacture all of the equipment (this includes creating all of the equipment/facilities needed for manufacturing and all of the energy needed to run the manufacturing plants, including all of the energy to construct them and the energy infrastructure that makes said energy available), create/acquire all of the building materials and all of the energy needed to build it (as well as all of the infrastructure/energy that went into creating the machinery necessary to build it), and then factoring in all of the energy needed for actually running the hospital...what is the body count?

How many water sources polluted by energy acquisition or product manufacturing? How many people forced off of their land or outright killed for resource/energy acquisition? How many people poisoned by air pollution from manufacturing facilities? And how many people saved by the hospital? Imo, the ledger is clearly deep into the blood red...the fact is, we value the lives of the affluent more than the rest of the world.

It creates a myth...a myth where you, or I, or anyone else may have access to these miraculous "life-saving" technologies, regardless of the fact that many of us would be crushed by medical debt in the somewhat unlikely event that we were to ever find ourselves the recipients of such unmatched care. However, this is the mythos that the American Dream is premised on...that we all have a chance to reach some Utopian level of wealth, a point at which this system will provide for our every want and need, we only need to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps. This creates incentive to tramp down dissent, even if you are not on the top of the pyramid, because you are at least on top of someone else, and as long as this system is in place, you have the chance to clamber over everyone else, reach the top, and secure the magical cornucopia that awaits for you.

In the words of Admiral Ackbar...It's a trap!

TL;DR
Industrial civilization carries an inherent body count that is not even remotely balanced by the "good" its advocates claim come from its creations. Therefore, the only logical course of action is to engage in dismantling it, while grappling with the very real and complex issues of resource management, carrying capacity, true sustainability (outside of the paradigm of global industrial capitalism), etc. Discuss.

I am increasingly dissilusioned with society and its expectations of me, and find it in direct conflict with the way i would like to live my life. My serious question is what can i really do? In what way could we individually or collectively find an alternative lifestyle and make it work?

This is not even considering changing society at large, i think that maybe a lost cause and may take some very major external events to really push people to change. Its a very sad state of affairs the new dark ages.

But in the meantime how can we at least live our own lives in a way that is true to ourselves and the planet? I know projects like the Earthship nexus have been proposed but never follwed through with.

Im not asking to be spoonfed, but if anyone has any pointers to a good collection of information on homesteading and permaculture id be very intersested.

You can all disreguard everything I said in this thread about veganism and the environment. It's not a viable solution. I hate it when these old threads come back

If you can only do one thing for now, I would say learn to wildcraft. Go out at least 3 times a week if you can into your local ecosystem and learn the plants. Learn how they grow, how to use them, how to harvest them sustainably..slowly you will just begin to learn more and more about your local ecosystem..and most importantly become part of it, instead of just living on top of it. You will learn both foods and medicines..then try to get involved if you want locally once you understand your ecosystem. This is the first step anyone really needs to take if they want to be more sustainable..because you DONT NEED MONEY!! to do it. Solar panels, homesteading etc are all great and if you can do it than definatly, do it..but I cant and many other people cant. I no longer even have a yard..That kind of thing is for people with the money/land to do it.

Learn folk practices and traditions like herbalism, knitting or sewing etc.. There is no certification recognized for herbalism(which is awesome) within America so this and other things are still truly practices mastered and belonging to the folk. Take away the power and reliance on doctors/the medical pharma systems etc whenever possible..anywhere you can cut out the money and the institutions do so.

Throw out your TV, etc..live as minimal as you can while not being a total caveman. Support local farmers if you can afford it..usually it's cheaper than the alternative, at least where I am.

These are some things that pretty much everyone can get into. The idea of a cosmic shift or w/e is just silly and not going to fix the world..and while these things might seem trivial at first, it needs to happen anyway. Humans have become too stupid for they're own good, which is sad concidering our intelligence potential. We have to relearn how to do all these things we forgot.

We cant be expected to do everything either. It is not my fault that the world is this way. I know this and I deny anyone who tries to tell me that it is everyones fault. There are certain powers who have much more control and are responsible for mass environmental devastation. The funding for these powers needs to be cut off somehow and some of the people behind them need to be held accountable.

The Earth is not dying, it is being killed by corporations and governments, and the people who are killing it have names and addresses.