DMT= most powerful drug to me.

I can't imagine anything else being as awesome as the things I have experienced with this substance.

In terms of effect then DMT is indeed the strongest drug of all the drugs I've personally tried.
And I've mostly only done Psychedelics. All non-psychedelics were rare experiments for me.

I wholly agree with whoever said that you can go very deep on DMT while still holding it together.
Indeed taking the amount of LSD or Psilocybin that's aquired to reach DMT-like breakthrough experiences
would make your mind such a disorganised, neurotic, borderline psychotic mess that you probably won't
experience or remember much of it.

Can't be arsed to check who said that, but they're right. In that respect, only DMT can take you THAT deep with
such clearity of mind; Other Psychedelics in rediculous doses might take you there, but not without becomming temporarily schizophrenic in the process.

I guess the DMT experience just doesn't give you time enough to react. Doesn't give you as much time
to start exhibiting psychotic behaviours as other, long lasting Psychedelics do.

Sometimes it's the sheer length of an LSD trip that can get to you. Not so much the depth/intensity.
Like a subtle itch you cannot scratch get's progressively worse & intolerable as time progresses.
DMT is so intense so fast and is over again so fast, there simply isn't time to develop this neurosis.

Good day. For me, the strongest substanes are Salvia divinorum and 5-MEO-DMT. They both gave me near to death-reborn experiencies. Between these two, i must say i would rather go for the God's molecule (5-MEO-DMT), it's like a big book from where you learn a new thing every single time you open it.

The most powerful drug is the mind. Your experience and mind is basically a makeup of various "drugs" that give you more of an experience than a foreign substance could. But if we are to specifically list a foreign substance I could only say from my experience it would be DMT by far and away. And, I have done it all my friend, done it all.

you've done mk-801? how was it?

Toloache?

idk dmt is very profound and intense for sure, but ime there are many other drugs that can take you just as far.

But when vaping dmt the onset is so fast that the experience will become very intense very quick compared to stuff that builds up in a few hours time.

I wouldn't recommend it. I had a minor brush with Brugmansia tea once & it was terrifyingly sinister. My otherwise tough, blackmetal-head friend regressed into a scared 6 year old boy
who heavily feared the dark.(which was amusing)
Not that night, but the one following that I had a most terrifying dream in which Datura appeared to me as an old lady sourcerer with a bipolar nature. She felt kind so I layed down my head in her lap. Very maternal. Then she turned &
suddenly felt ice-cold and murderous. I was locked in her lap as a horribly huge spider began to crawl out of her hoody, from behind her head, and slowly crawled to my face, getting ready to devour me.

So I got her message. Never bothered to travel with her again.
Tropane Alkaloids ain't nothing to fuck with.

Allthough I DID, rarely, use Toloache seeds(which I grew 1 summer) as an Oneirogen.
In this case I would chew/steep tea of no more than maximally 5 seeds, but I'd usually
take no more than 3 seeds some 30 minutes before bedtime. But, because even at these low
doses the sinister effect is quite evident to me, I have abandonned Tropane alkaloids all together. Nasty alkaloids.






PS: Benzyme, who mentioned having done mk-801 and what is it?
An analogue of naturally occuring Tryptamines or Phenethylamines?

The most powerful is YOU and your SOUL, you choose to be able to have a ground breaking experience. You can get high in two ways. Excitement and Sacred. If a powerful experience is what your looking for then look inwards.

DMT though is at the top of my list, but has the most potential to surprise you and fail.

then the mushrooms.

Wow, quite an intense trip. I did trip on toloche while reading the book "Las enseñanzas de Don Juán" wich mean "The teachings of Don Juan". It is a book about a person who learns about the natural wisdom, that is behind sacred plants, from Yaqui tribe shaman. I should say that my experience was more pleasant than yours, as i remember traveling far in the time to know my ancesters. I don't really know if the book is translated to english, but i would recomend it to every person who is interested in these kind of plant knowledge.

Theres a part in the book, wich i will cite next, that i really like very much:

"-La yerba del diablo [toloache] era el aliado de mi bene factor. Podría haber sido también el
mío, pero no me gustó.
-¿Por qué no le gustó la yerba del diablo, don Juan?
-Tiene una desventaja seria.
-¿Es inferior a otros poderes aliados?
-No. No me estás entendiendo. La yerba del diablo es tan poderosa como el mejor de los
aliados, pero tiene algo que a mí en lo personal no me gusta.
-¿Me puede decir qué es?
-Malogra a los hombres. Los hace probar el poder demasiado pronto, sin fortificar sus
corazones, y los hace dominantes y caprichosos. Los hace débiles en medio de gran poder."

In english:
-The devil's weed (toloache) was the allied of my benefactor. I could have been mine too, but i didn´t like it
-Why didnt you like it don Juán?
-It has a serious disadvantage
-Is it inferior to other allied powers?
-No. You are not understanding what i say. The devil's weed is so powerful as the best of the allies, but it has something that i dont personally like
-Can you tell me what is it?
-It spoils the men. It makes them taste the power to soon, without fortifying their heart, it makes them dominant and capricous. It makes them weak in the middle of a big power

EDIT: I found the book translated in english http://library.kisps.net...an's%20Teachings.pdf

Luckily I only ingested a threshold dose of Brugmansia tea, Sabbathin.
Otherwise I might just have been in the Psych Ward or 6 feet under by now.

I read that book of Castañeda too. And another one, before I abandonned Carlos Castañeda as a fraud.
His sketch of Yaqui culture is grossly inaccurate. Also his entire series of books were written mostly from a perspective of Fear. I guess Castañeda is VERY much influenced by Datura-use; I think he did it too much or in 1 of his Toloache-journeys he got badly psychologically damaged. And I dislike his books for the very reason I dislike Datura.
BUT let's not drift off topic.

Indeed tropane alkaloids are remarkably potent & their effect devastatingly powerfull. But if we're discussing what might be the "strongest drug" I'm guessing dangerously toxic deliriants should not be included. I guess we're talking about drugs that responsible Psychonaughts would willingly take to alter their consciousness.
Not drugs that assassins use to kill & wreckless hedonists use to seek an easily obtainable, legal "high". Otherwise I may as well mention violently potent poisons like Abrin & Alpha-Amanitin.

Even many central american & south american shamans refuse to work with Datura, because "they cannot maintain their ties to the earth under it's effects".
So let's rule out Tropane Alkaloids & other dangerous toxins/deliriants.




I'd like to see a list of the most Potent psychoactive drugs known to man.
What is the dose at which lofenantyl starts being active? I thought
that Salvinorin Ethoxymethyl Ether( AKA "Symmetry" ) is exceptionally potent,
being active from doses between 10 and 50 MICROGRAMS.

Is Lofentanyl more potent than Symmetry? That would be freaky.
What other psychoactive compounds can rival Symmetry's potency?

I've actually done some research into this. I'm not sure what the most potent of all drugs is, but there are some unbelievably potent opioid receptor agonists out there. The two most powerful are:

1) Ohmefentanyl ((3R,4S,beta-S)-13-fluoro ohmefentanyl specifically) which weighs in at a mind-blowing 18,000 times more potent then morphine.
(For reference, heroin, the mother of all illegal street opiates is only 1.5-2 times the potency of morphine).

2) 14-Methoxymetopon, which while only 500 times as strong as morphine when taking normally, is up to 1,000,000 times stronger (that's right, a million) then morphine when injected into the spine.

Scary stuff.

Some other big hitters are:

Salvinorin B Ethoxymethyl Ether, which you mentioned above and has been christened 'Symmetry' is active at 10 micrograms, which is less then LSD, even. It is an atypical psychedelic and acts as an agonist of the kappa opioid receptor.

Dizocilpine is an NMDA receptor agonist and is active at between 50-100 micrograms (this is speculative). It would be similar in effect to Ketamine, PCP and DXM.

Lysergic acid 2-butyl amide (LSB) is an analogue of LSD-25, but supposedly active at even lower doses.

a6-ethyl-6-nor-lysergic acid diethylamide (ETH-LAD) is another LSD analogue that is slightly more potent, with a threshold around 40 micrograms.

That's what I have off the top of my head.
There may be more (including some superpowerful amphetamines that I can't seem to remember).

Blessings
~ND

If the function of a drug is to alter consciousness...should religion also be considered a drug? The so called Opiate of the masses.

It was the Egyptian God of Wisdom that said: "Oh ye holy books, that hath been anointed with the drug of imperishability, be ye unchanging throughout the Aeons".

But to get straight to the point, I have had freshly picked magic mushrooms by the pan full and the belly full; acid that seemingly blasted me out into space so far that I had to clench my nails hard into the arm rests of my comfy chair, just to hold on. With DMT I know I have not even touched the sides, yet that which I have had, for me, makes it (hands down) thee most powerful drug I ever encountered.

Didn't Terrence McKenna once say something he would not want to even think about taking anything stronger than DMT.

if we are talking about the most intense experience of one single substance dmt, but my most powerful experiences have been with ayahuasca brews which contian up too 15 different admixtures, i think ayahuasca is deff the most power transforming thing i have ever done, dmt is a very intense experience but it doesnt leave a lasting impression like aya brew does, a good aya brew will help change your life forever, once the medicine is in your body shes there forever

^^Some pretty epic compounds mentioned here, especically 13 fluro ohmefentanyl.

AFAIK, dizocilpine is an NMDA antagonist, rather than an agonist.

On the Ohmefentanyl issue:
"A carboethoxy group is added to the 4-position of the piperidine ring... is listed as being up to 30,000 times more potent than morphine"

Da-yum.

When you get to that level, you're pretty well out of the recreational-drug zone and lodged pretty firmly in the world of poisons. Unless you're a 200mg-of-Fentanyl-a-day kind of person (which is sincerely hope no one is), you won't get much out of these but a quick ticket to the Next World, and even if you were that into Fent, you'd STILL have to be super careful

I'm pretty sure the Russians used Carfentanil as a chemical weapon back in the early 2,000s
(While not as epic as Ohmefentanyl, Carfentanil has a potency 10,000x the strength of morphine.

Changing the game a bit, RTI-121 aka (-)-2β-Carboisopropoxy-3β-(4-iodophenyl)tropane is an analogue of cocaine that is 57x more potent then (d)-methamphetamine (the heroin of stimulants).

Blessings
~ND

Definitely. You're looking at doses of what, fractions of a microgram? Assuming a dose of morphine is is the 10mg magnitude. Scary stuff to be sure... and I doubt we've seen the last of astronomically potent opioid agonists.

Interesting to note, isn't it, that Symmetry is also incredible potent and also works on the opioid system (though thankfully the kappa not mu receptors).

Nanograms, probably. I don't think there are scales available on the open market that could possibly measure out a safe dose, and the margin of error is so small that it would be impossible to do safely.

I suppose if you had, say, 1 microgram, and dissolved it all in gallons of saline you MIGHT be able to create something usable, but even inhaling stray powder in the air would probably knock you out or possibly even kill you.

There's sort of a perverse competitiveness among people: everyone wants to have found the most powerful opioid agonists, and then everyone wants to have taken the most powerful opioid agonist. I'm sure people will keep making them.

As for Symmetry, it's an analogue of Salvanorin, so it's more like Salvia then heroin or morphine. Definitely a k-opioid agonist. The reports I read made it sounds powerful, but utterly miserable.

All this kind of makes you wonder if there are serotonergic psychedelics that powerful out there that no one has made yet. Of if there is some other family of serotonin receptor agonists not like any of the current three groups. Maybe some strange analogue where a microgram is equivalent to am LSD thumbprint.
*shivers*

I have to admit, I love speculative chemistry

Blessings
~ND

Although in many ways I agree with the assertion of DMT as the most powerful drug, I do have another perspective that you might find interesting.

My candidate for the world's most powerful drug is the neurotransmitter dopamine. When dopamine is administered intravenously, it has only peripheral effects and is not psychoactive, being unable to pass the blood-brain barrier. As an administered drug, it is relatively ineffective. So why am I making this proposal?

In many ways a neurotransmitter can be compared to a drug. For example, sympathomimetic drugs can mimic the effect of neurotransmitters by activating the some or all of the same receptors that the endogenous neurotransmitter does. Eg, nicotine mimics acetylcholine at nicotinic receptors, amphetamine mimics phenethylamine, THC and CBD mimic endogenous cannabinoids such as anandamide, etc etc. (And if DMT does act as a neurotransmitter in human brains, then Psilocybin could be considered such as well.) Clearly none of these chemicals interact with the body in the quite the same way as the endogenous compounds, and some markedly differently, but the relationships are there.

Almost all recreational drugs affect dopamine either directly or indirectly, it is the hallmark of a hedonistic drug. Cocaine, Amphetamine, MDMA, MDPV, Opiates, Ketamine, the list goes on. Dopamine is an integral part of human behaviour, and plays a key role in the neurochemical basis of things like motivation and reward, problem solving, intelligence, desire, lust, appetite, pleasure, inspiration, joy and of course, addiction.

Excessive stimulant use is a regrettable fact of my teenage past. Despite the inevitable hedonistic element, I was always fascinated by the relationship between abstract pharmacology and visceral conscious experience. The pivotal bridge in this quest for understanding was the drug MDPV, which is a highly selective dopamine reuptake inhibitor. A very powerful drug in its own right, and unfortunately for me, highly addictive. I eventually learned to recognise the feeling of (and lack of) dopamine in my brain and body, and so able to observe its myriad effects in very real terms. Even years after this brief stage in my life, I am still keenly aware of the effect of dopamine in my every day life. I say this just to outline roughly how I came to my understanding, because some of the things I might claim, although very much supported by the scientific literature, are in a sense, a product my own personal, and admittedly subjective 'research'.

From my observations, dopamine's prime role in all facets of human life is almost unparalleled. There is a book I came across that seems to touch on what I am referring to.
It is 'The Dopaminergic Mind in Human Evolution and History' by Fred Previc. The only thing is, because my understanding of dopamine is so direct rather than abstract, I do feel I have an understanding of it that transcends a purely scientific one in some aspects. I don't mean this as arrogance whatsoever, I just believe that direct experience yields a degree of understanding that theoretical discourse can often lack. It is simply far more intuitive.

Edit: Another thing is that the book I mentioned focuses far too much on ideas like dopamine 'levels' which really have little explanatory power on their own (a hole that many pop psychologists tend to fall into), perspectives like that are quite limited in their scope and really do no justice to the ridiculously multifaceted layers of interaction that occur with such matters, not to mention the complexity of the brain itself.

This is a huge topic to be bringing into this thread, so I'll leave it here. I've barely even started and it's already a monster of a post. Apologies.