Hello forum!

I have read and looked into DMT for some time, of course a part of me thinks it's connected with conciousness and dimensions and then of course i have a skeptical side.

But let's assume this molecule is "divine" in nature and does really have some sort of significance in our afterlife, in alternate dimensions, and the such. All the tek's i have seen about extracting have included these extremely toxic and harsh chemicals, to extract this molecule. And that first hand concerns me because, If something like this would be divine in nature and has a connection with our conciousness should it not be more natural? i realize that the molecule itself is present in plants, but obviously it was not meant to be extracted by these harsh, toxic, and lethal chemicals, if anything i believe ayahuasca would be the most natural way to ingest dmt. Another thing that would concern me would be while smoking the extracted dmt i would be smoking these harsh chemicals (example: lye) and could harm my body severly.

I just think using all of these man made chemicals to obtain a molecule that supposedly has all of these divine properties takes away from the divine properties because you have to use these harsh man made chemicals to obtain it. it seems if it was divine and can connect us with other beings and alternate dimensions, it should be able to be used without the use of these harsh chemicals, because i'm certain when everything was created, and dmt existed in its first and natural habitat, that lye and naptha did not exist. I just don't believe this is how it was meant to be ingested, if it indeed is a key to unlocking connections to other planes and divine places/entities.

Much love,

Groundsound

This is a debate which has raged wildly across the forums in various shapes and forms continually.

if we are all of the divine, as is DMT, then the petrochemicals and the protons and electrons that make them up are equally divine.

as is the entire experience, as the extraction and the "sacred" experiences are actually linked together.

Just my o.2c

Alchemists worked with many toxic chemicals to divine the philosophers stone/ complete the great work. Just because something is toxic doesnt mean that it cant be sacred. Its all about your intention I believe. If you want them to be sacred then they are sacred. You are the arbiter.

Also you shouldn't be smoking harsh chemicals if you have done everything properly. The goal is a pure product, that shouldn't be harmful to anything besides maybe your ego. By the way if you search there are food safe extractions.

Sure but if you're using relatively new chemicals made my man that otherwise could not have been found in nature, i'm confused as to how if we were meant to experience dmt (if it is produced in our brains) and we are wired to experience dmt (birth/death/NDE) then i'm sure the "divine way" of ingesting dmt wouldn't include go to home depot and buy some lye and naptha and breakdown a plant for the molecule inside of it. I dunno i mean i prefer freebase to ayahuasca, but it sort of makes it seem unnatural, as if we sort of cheated our way to the experience, by using unnatural ways to get the molecule.

Appart from what others above me have said, it seems you aren't looking well because we have developed all sorts of extraction teks using solvents like orange oil or sunflower oil, and bases such as sodium carbonate or calcium hydroxide (which indigenous people use, by the way, in the form of calcinated shells).

There is a great variety of ways to extract DMT, with all sorts of different chemicals, but in all the ways described in this forum, if done correctly, there should be no traces of the chemicals used, only the desired alkaloids are left, as shown by analysis of these products.

So do whatever you feel more comfortable with.. And if you don't want to purify, just do a crude extract like a simple brew, as in, ayahuasca.

As for 'how it was meant to be ingested', as you said yourself, it's just a belief you have, which is just as true as any other belief. By the way, you are trodding on a logical fallacy called 'appeal to nature'.

I agree, about what you say of beliefs. And yes i am sort of dipping my feet in appeal to nature i suppose, but i don't fully indulge in it. I was just suggesting that if we are wired to experience DMT, then i wouldn't think that the way we are doing it by extracting it would be the way we are "supposed" to, considering back when it was put into existence and the first humans were around you couldn't walk into a home depot and buy naptha and lye or whatever else (sunflower oil/orange oil) and extract it. but then again if we arent "supposed" to do something it could be that we wouldn't be able to do it. vice versa it goes with just because you can do something doesnt mean you should.

I guess it's all what you make of it. Personally, It's just easier to smoke it, although i feel selfish doing so, and unnatural, as commpared to ayahuasca, i feel very natural and as if it is more personal and like i have given the experience more respect, but with smoking it i feel like many people take advantage of the experience, because in any form of dmt, i view it as a spiritual experience to be respected, not to just "trip balls" cause it is fun.

What is 'natural' is just your own limited perception and judgement, earth's atmosphere was once toxic still 100% natural at same time.


Also today, 'dangerous and aggressive' stuff is to find in full nature, very lethal, both in (bio)chemicals and events. Maybe nature is ethically wrong too?



Those guys did what they could, and if they had other means they would have followed that too. Just because they had less means it is not suddenly "the way supposed to do", there is some mythology to debunk here. But by all means, follow your heart.



Vaping can be very spiritual and respectful practice as much as drinking ayahuasca, really. This quote says more about you than about vape, and I invite you to find the spiritual/healing values you've been missing out in vape so far. Barely having one toe in, already extremely benefits are noticed. IMO and so far, aya and vape are complementary, filling in gaps of each other nicely.

This is a very interesting topic and one I have pondered for a while. In my opinion it is quite difficult to declare whether using toxic chemicals to extract dmt is disrespectful to nature, because we all have different perceptions of what "nature" is.

I agree with the OP that I always feel closer to the molecule when I ingest huasca rather than an extracted form and most people will probably receive a longer lasting impression from a huasca session than a deem blast.

I think we all should put in the effort to start doing more natural extractions and get off of the lye/naptha because human beings already put out ridiculous amounts of pollution and every little bit adds up in the end. Also I hate working with naptha cuz it smells so dam bad and every time i smell it I get an animalistic instinct to get the hell away from it as quick as possible.

There are many mushrooms and plants that are extremely toxic to humans.

I don´t think that dangerous or toxic chemicals degrade/offend the Divine within the molecule. Why should it, actually? Of course we can harm Nature or ourselves if we don´t handle these chemicals carefuly and with respect, but I don´t think they are naturally bad for our Karma.

Do we drive cars (burning gas and oil)?
Do we use electricity (thus co-producing toxic waste from nuclear power plants)?

"Is using dangerous chemicals to extract DMT a disrespectful act towards Nature?"

As many people said above already, these are important and interesting questions. I don´t want to trivialize the original question, but with regard to what is good/bad, I think we should get a broader perspective on our own lives and actions...

Different plant oils where used since many thousands of years ago, way before we have any data regarding ayahuasca use by humans, for example. So if for you what matters is antiquity of a chemical being used, then there you go, problem solved. And you can use calcinated shells for a base if you want as mentioned before.

Or you can do a tek based simply on alcohol and a base. This is all described in the sustainable extractions subforum.

You could even go as far as pressing some oil-containing plant yourself, to get the oil, or ferment and distill the alcohol yourself, if you felt inclined to do so.



As mentioned before by different people, natural vs unnatural relies on many misleading assumptions and fallacious arguments and has been discussed many times in this forum. For example here.

Even naphtha is natural, if you think about it. It's distilled biofuel, it's not synthetic at all..

Anyways if you personally feel smoking DMT extracted by naphtha is wrong, then don't. Either don't smoke it at all, or do it by using a more "natural" extraction method.

what is perceived by one to be dangerous is perceived by another to be harmless.


I am more concerned about WHO is extracting than I am about what people are using in their extraction techniques.



lol

IH

Thank you all for your informative and thoughtful replies! I suppose i will try and look for more natural methods for extraction, or stick to aya. Either way we can all agree that this molecule, regardless of how it is ingested or obtained, is to be respected and treated as a spiritual experience!

I couldn't have said this better myself.

DMT is just another molecule on it's own. It was never meant for anything, but it's there and we can do as we please, such is nature. There is nothing unnatural in this or any other world. Everything is precisely as it can only be.

Personally I think having the ability to extract and isolate chemicals is a huge advantage and extremely convenient.

The only concerns i have about dmt extractions are if the person doing so knows what they are doing and are safe, as well as able to produce a food safe end product.

The other, being extraction supplies, and how efficiently they are used. Some teks over the years, called for hundreds of grams of lye, hundreds of mls of naphtha, or another hydrocarbon solvent that in all likelihood was evaporated into the atmosphere.

There's other ways of going about extraction that save you money by being much, much more frugal with your solvents, bases, and acids, and all the other extraction supplies, at the expense of a little more work involved.

IMHO there's no excuse to be lazy and extremely wasteful, but that's a condition of American society (and other consumerist countries as well, I'm just saying that as an American citizen).

By and large those teks are used less and less it seems for more efficient/less wasteful/safer ones, which makes me very happy indeed.

You could almost say, we learned, shared, and expanded in our abilities to extract dmt in a more ecologically friendly, and more efficient manner

This is one I obviously feel rather strongly about.

I am all for the chemists with the real labs using the USP or whatever lab grade chemicals in their fancy equipment to create amazing ultra-pure products. I fully support this work and think more people need to be doing it.

When it comes to Joe Schmoe extracting in his kitchen using the paint thinner and drain cleaner from the local hardware store, I feel a disservice is being done. I know working with those materials always made me feel sketchy and paranoid, not to mention the environmental impact, safety, and health risks involved in their production, use, and disposal.

Luckily, Joe Schmoe now has many other options. The veg oil teks are working out phenomenally now that we are getting them refined and quite frankly at this point there is no need for anyone to use drain cleaner and paint thinner ever again.

I strongly urge all home extractors to make the switch to true kitchen chemistry and help us spread the sustainable entheogenic evolution.