Were you on a completely organic, whole foods diet before with only organic freerange or wild animal products before you went vegetarian/vegan? Often people who make these claims go from a crappy American type of diet to a vegetarian diet, and they change everything else about how they eat as well including cutting out gluten, instead of just going vegetarian and not chaning anything else..then make all kinds of claims about how much better they are due to vegetarianism.

Incidentally you get the same claims from people who go from a standard western diet to a whole foods organic paleo or primal diet..it seems to me that anyone is going to benefit from simply getting onto a whole foods organic diet in general.

There is no reason to assume organic meat from healthy animals is going to give you any more allergies than anything else.

Animal products are going to be one of the most toxin laden conventional foods simply because they are higher up in the food chain..they are eating the mono cropped pesticide, herbicide and suicide grain. The grain is not even the food they evolved on(not to mention the cows that are fed other cows), it puts holes in the gut of cattle leading them to need even more antibiotics etc..all that stucc concentrates in animal foods even moreso than plants because the animals live a life feeding on those plants. So even just cutting that out is going to a make a difference..but none of that is relevant if you are eating wild meat or organic pastured meat.

So much respect for the cycle of life in this thread, yet I don't see anybody interested in joining that cycle as the hunted one. Wouldn't that experience be a lot more exciting, with the added bonus that there are no moral dilemmas? You find a place where hungry lions like to hang out, take your pocket knife, and go for an afternoon stroll.

I've hunted since a young age to keep the costs of the year's cookings down, same as my father did.
Heck, same as all of my ancestors did.
Call it whatever you want but it's a necessary tradition and self sustenance for almost anyone that doesn't hunt on game ranches.

No moral dilemma for me. I do what I need to do to sustain myself and be healthy, as all creatures do. I don't need to convince myself of how morally sound I am by pretending I would also willingly allow myself to be eaten by a giant lion. I would fight for my life, as all creatures do.

Life is not a bambi movie. I respect the animals enough to wish them to live a free and wild life and for them to die cleanly and quickly so that I may be sustained. I don't feel any moral dilemma because of that. The alternative factory farming and monoculture is much more cruel.

I was not on a completely organic whole foods diet before I became vegetarian, but I was not on a American type diet either. I was on a what you call western standard diet I guess.
I have not cut out gluten from my diet. I still eat eggs from organic farming and very little cheese. No milk.

I don't have a problem with people hunting their own animals for consumption. I do think you need to be able to look the animal in the eyes before you kill it. So Jamie, yes you are right about the hunting thing (even though I don't feel that way about it).

What I find strange is that on some occasions we consider ourselves to be of a higher order of consciousness, but on others we keep looking back at how we have lived. For me not eating animals is a way of taking responsibility for that higher order of consciousness. Killing your own animal might fuel that kind of consciousness (even though it doesn't do it for me), but getting it from the supermarket and not even making the link between the actual animal and the steak on your plate is simply terrible in my eyes.

And to the argument about how it is natural to kill and be killed, it is also natural to be compassionate (a lot of examples for this can be found), even more so than killing as this in the animal kingdom is mostly done for eating or survival. The animal kingdom is full of examples on compassionate gestures even towards other species. It just depends on which one you deem more important.

Hunters face firearms accidents, stray bullets, being mistaken for game, falls from tree stands, getting injured in a remote area, getting lost, dying from exposure (both cold and heat), snakes, badgers, cougars, wolves, bears, moose (highly aggressive and territorial), and a few even die from elk or deer attacks.

The small caliber, bolt action .243 I hunt with will NOT take down a bear or charging moose if I can even get off the 4-5 shots it holds. My chance of hitting a wolf (let alone a pack) on the run in the few seconds I'd see it before it's on me is almost zero.

You also can't tell me that bow hunting bear or moose is not taking your life in your hands and putting yourself squarely in the circle of life. Those brave hunters are certainly throwing their lot down on the table.

Granted all the risks are pretty slim, but I'm a top level predator and there's no reason I shouldn't use all my available skills when participating. Nature can kill you in many, many ways and everyone participating in her experience is certainly at risk.

I've certainly been afraid for my life and had a pretty good chance of dying several times in my hunting/hiking/camping experiences. I had a friend almost die of a rattlesnake bite also. The one time I've seen a moose while actually hunting it could barely see me, but aggressively charged halfway to me, snorted and pawed the dirt a few times before deciding that running up the other side of the bowl wasn't worth it. Given that I didn't have a moose tag, I couldn't have fired on it until it was clearly upon me and trying to kill me. Unless the sound of the shot scared it off I wouldn't have had the firepower to stop it. I've seen video of people killed by moose and it's not pretty. They run back and forth across you pounding you with their massive hooves half a dozen times on each pass.

So yes, my life is certainly at risk when hunting. There's absolutely nothing I could do if I came across a moose that didn't want me there. I'd be lying broken and bleeding, quite likely dead right off the bat, in the middle of the woods unless I could scurry up a tree.

Everyone participates. Everyone dies. The question is if you want to understand the game before your turn is over. The only birth and death some people experience is their own. IMHO that is a shame because you'll have little understanding and no experience when it's your turn to leave the game.


-FF

Man, I've already deleted one post figuring it's best just not to engage you, but your repeated insistence that one is somehow incomplete as a human being and unable to grasp some great cosmic truth until and unless they've killed for sport is really pissing me off.

I'm glad you're so comfortable with your place in the food chain, but I think you're a complete and utter asshole. I hope the next moose you encounter in the woods rips your hillbilly ass to pieces.