I"m not sure about that. We are always distilling, purifying and extracting to get to the heart of the matter.
The drug business is huge and if it all became legal and regulated think of all the research and investment that would go into mind altering substances. I reckon big business" competition for our custom could result in some wonderful developments for altering our consciousnesses.

yeah your right hug46 thanks for pointing that out.. I meant more that the need for the harder illicit drugs would probably decrease if the less harmful (but still satisfying in effects) plants were available but i guess I didn't word that post very well

Just chiming in since you are cherry picking here and even leaning towards a false dilemma.

Talk about CT's are not allowed on the DMT-Nexus since none of those talks can be backed up with reliable data and as such you get a game of 'yes it is, no it aint' and all topics about CT's wend down south due to that fact pretty fast. I also do not like to be a platform for people making money over the heads of gullible people, something that a lot of ct and 'free energy' sites do.

What you are suggesting here is that all the CT's talked about in the past are now turning to facts, but you decidedly left out the CT's that have no ground at all and that did not turn to fact. With this you are cherry picking the data to support your claim and you are also leaning towards presenting it like "all CT's are true or false, since these CT's are true, CT's cannot be false and thus all CT's are fact". However, that some of the conspiracy theories turn in conspiracy fact does not mean that all CT's are fact, that is bad reasoning.

Once a CT turns into a conspiracy fact with solid data you will see that it can be discussed on the DMT-Nexus, the current PRISM thread is evidence of that. But please do not try to make it look like all CT's will one day turn up as fact.


As for the discussion in this thread

I think that people should make a difference between the government as a whole and the politicians who make up the laws. Forgiving your government is easy as you can see positive things that are done by the government too, like infrastructure and if you believe it or not: relative safety. Just thinking about the middle ages and how easy death came at that time might change your opinion about 'how hard you have it today with this bad government'.

So I think that looking at the government as a whole to be bad or evil is just nonsense. There is a whole spectrum per issue that you can assign as somewhere between good or evil, and who decides anyway what is good or evil? What is considered evil for one can be considered good for another. A farmer might like to have the ability to fertilize their land, while other people dislike the smell coming from a fertilized land that is ruining their outside breakfast.

With politics it is near impossible to satisfy all, the more people around the less likely you can satisfy them all. The DMT-Nexus as a small community is a good example of this: in this small community we already have so many opinions and things people like or dislike that it is mind boggling at times. We have a common goal here but on other topics our opinions differ a lot, like allowing CT's or not for example.

So to end with what I started with: A law is made by politicians, who is part of a government but is not the government as a whole. If you have a problem with that law, then you must find ways to change that law.

Changing a law means politics and changing the minds of politicians to change that law. Changing the mind of politicians means also changing the minds of the people voting for them.

So to change a law you can either directly take it up with the politicians, maybe even by becoming a politician yourself, or by mass influencing the voting majority.

Just being angry at your government will solve NOTHING!


Kind regards,

The Traveler

i am ready to forgive the government

i only desire a ton of cannabis , dmt and lsd in return

also i would like a steak with some mashed potatos

thank you

Damn skippy... I am with you Trav on the whole change the laws and influence the electorate bit.

And Jin, I want my 40 Acres, my Mule... and a wide plain of phylaris grass wouldn't hurt the deal none either. When the drug war ends, they can hand out yards of ayahuaca vine as reparations.

Seriously though...


I suggested no such thing. I merely showed that some substantial amount of things we were not supposed to discuss here... have recently been vindicated as truth.

It is hard to put the burden of proof on people who are talking about things that are being kept secret by organizations that have the power to keep stuff under wraps. And what is so bad about speculation anyway?

I really think that people like us, on the cutting edge of society, can not turn away from disturbing realities just because they happen to involve conspiracies. The ostrich that doesn't wanna talk about predators because it stirs up paranoia... is not served well by denial. He gets well served for dinner.

I think that people who screamed at us loonies about our CT nonsense might be inclined to offer up some apologies now, though.

Actually, I was never deep in those threads personally.

But still, there is a kind of pattern where people scold others for saying something they don't wanna hear and that may be hard to substantiate... and then when the lights come on and the tinfoil hatters were right, no one thinks to say sorry.

At any rate, I merely pointed out a random handful of stuff that used to get people all up in arms here... which has now become de facto accepted as verbatim. Cherry picking? Possibly... but I never said all CT's are true. Who would put forth such a ridiculous argument?

Certainly not I.

George Bush (snr) commented after being questioned about the Iran/Contra debacle, stating "If the people were to ever find out what we have done, we would be chased down the streets and lynched."

This was as (apparently) quoted to Sarah McClendon (White House Reporter) in her June 1992 Newsletter.

Personally, I think the vast chunk of humanity (myself included) don't even know a fraction of the depths of their misdeeds (meaning those who usurp and abuse positions of power).

If we did, well I don't think the more forgiving types among us would be given the chance to offer much of anything, especially when a large portion of the "less wise" groups in society would likely get to them first (in the theory of all become revealed). I doubt we will ever collectively know the whole truth of our times, or indeed most of the past leading to it.

My last 2 cents I wish to spare on the subject. Wake me up when we have "benefactors" instead of "politicians" (yeah I know, that sounds well "half life" lol)

If consciousness is a collective body, modern day politics is the boil that needs lancing.. Just my opinion.

CT, alternative medicine, environmental issues....


It seems to me that when these sorts of things come to light, deniers just find something else to deny--no need to apologize, we got new things to deny and debunk. There is always an establishment line to be towed.

1. No. Not as long as the laws & their enforcements are as injust & obscene as they are.
2. As evil as they come.
3. Not wrong. Just lying shamelessly.
4. No they don't. Surely they have in their service proper scientists. Which brings me to...
5. Their campaign against drugs defenitely is a deliberate attempt to deceive & exploit us all.

You say no conspiracy-theories, but that is almost a logical next step: Why would they lie to us all so blatantly & persistantly, harming so many people in the process?

Well you CANNOT get around the fact that there, in fact, IS a conspiracy.
The makers of the crooked drug-laws & those that propose them & lobby for them
defenitely are deliberately mass-deceiving the public about drugs.

There are many theories as to why exactly it is done and just how it is done, but
there are so many theories and so many of them are quite rediculous & deluded,
I agree it is not worth throwing up random theories...Perhaps we'll never find out.

But what we do know is that from this war on drugs several businesses are making
serious profits: Private owned Prisons, Law Enforcement teams, DEA, Rehab clinics...

Just to name a few. There are many more businesses who's sole source of profit is,
in 1 way or another, contributing to the War on drugs. Shulgin made this point in TIHKAL,
in the chapter named "Qui Bono?" (Meaning "Who benefits?".

Some billion dollar corporations own many different businesses. It is very conceivable that
the CEOs of one such titanic corporation, that owns Prisons, Rehab clinics, Pharmaceutical-production labs & Psychiatric clinics, come together regulairly to discuss ways to maintain
& whenever possible increase the prohibition of Spiritual & Recreational drug use; To further their profits and thus to extend their power.


Allthough something like this MUST be behind all of this, we just don't know.
It's like the pointless question: "Does God exist?" We just don't know and it's
fun, but of no real use to endlessly speculate about possible explanations.
Because even knowing who the masterminds behind the War on Drugs are, isn't going
to help really. Whoever they are, they are powerfull. And their creation, the
War on Drugs, is now far greater than themselves. Like I said before: Nowadays many
businesses are dependant on the War on Drugs for their profit.

But allthough it's useless to endlessly theorise away, it is also silly & ignorant
to be so phobic and repressive of a little conspiracy theory.
Sometimes cold, heartless people really DO conspire against the rest of us. Sometimes? Throughout history Malicious, deceitfull people have allways made life miserable for the rest of us. Surely we all agree that what's causing the War on Drugs is no different.
Perhaps we'll never know what REALLY motivates these "people" to make such a mess of
our societies.


But I DO know, beyond any doubt, that the "people" who propose these apeshit laws,
those that lobby for them & the shamefull politicians that have those Laws passed
& enforced are deliberately lying to us for their political & economical gain and to our detriment.

I've already been referenced too many times to go back and edit the original post. So long as noone deliberately squashes (in a disrespectful manner) someone else's argument with conspiracy theories (or anything else for that matter), then it's fine.

In essence I'm just saying be mindful and try to keep it Disney, that's all.

I will tell you all a little story about the complicity of government. Because i myself have dabbled in local politics when i was canvassing for myself to become chairman of the local fishing comittee.
I had some good policies, but the main one was raising the minimum length of each trout that you are allowed to keep, and having a weekly 3 trout limit of keepers. These policies were very close to my heart and i believed them to be tantamount to maintaining a healthy local wild trout population. I had no selfish agenda, i just wanted the best thing for the river and i saw the fishermen as secondary.

But politics and picking up votes is a tricky business. You just can"t keep all of the people happy all of the time. I ended up reneging on some of my policies and modified others (frequency of overhead branch lopping, permissible hours after daylight for fishing) to get more votes because i believed that my main policies would make a difference for the better.

Eventually the whole thing got too emotionally overwhelming for me. I made too many compromises which i found slightly morally repugnant. So i bowed out. I just wasn"t enough of a thick skinned high achiever to stay in the game. The guy that eventually became chairman was a non empathic trout slaughterer.

Should i have stayed in politics?
Would i have made a beneficial difference?
Would that difference have had any relevance to my fellow committee members and other river users?
These are questions i ask myself everyday. It"s a complicated issue.

Speaking of CT theories does government mean "mind control" in Latin? Or is the -ment in government a suffix to turn the verb governing into a noun?

Your story illustrates the reason why i do not believe in "changing the system from within".


idk which etymology of government I personally believe in. It could be from the greek kubernao : to steer, drive, guide

~or~

From the latin, Guverno--to control + mentis--mind.

Perhaps it's from the greek, and the Latin version is just one of those little kwinky dinks that is very telling.

Now the entymology of government is thus: Insectoid aliens are meddling in human affairs.

Yes but what would you suggest in relation to my story?
If i cannot change my system from within then maybe i should drop out, dam my stretch of the river, put a fence round my land and start my own fish friendly enclave. Have my own set of rules. The thing about rules is not everyone likes them.
As far as the drug laws go, the majority of us think these laws are wrong and have credible arguments as to why. But i think we are in a minority. If a majority is happy with a law, isn"t that democracy at work?
And if the majority are just mis-informed , why? We all have access to the same information nowadays.

With regard to CTs. Ive got a mate that thinks everything is a CT, and he always rubs my nose in it when one comes true. I said to him "if you throw enough darts at a board with a blindfold on, you"ll eventually get a good score"

In any system, biological or conceptual, do you forgive the tumour that strives to grow faster than any other unit in that system, on the expense of that same system?

I would not even condemn it. It was once like the rest of the units, but its sense of purpose changed, unfortunately to a path that restricts the function of the rest. The rest of the system has a lot to do with why that change occurred. Instead of occupying my mind with forgiving/accepting/condemning it, I would focus on bringing up new units with values that may have the potential to be impervious to its current influence, regardless of the reasons that put it in a position that allows it to drain resources from the system to feed its own.

Exactly... unless everyone in government realized the detriment to humanity they were causing and resigned effective immediately, the concept of this thread doesn't make sense to me. If that happened, maybe we could see eye to eye

The drug war is one level of incoherence in society. But there are deeper, much more harmful incoherences at play also. Like pretending economies can continue to grow forever in material production (and waste) on a planet with finite resources. Through globalization we rely on each other more than ever before in history, yet our money abstracts this reliance and makes it seem like we don't need anybody, as long as we have enough money. Our monetary system directly contributes to fragmentation, incoherence, lack of shared meaning, and the illusion of separation.

I agree anger and blame won't change or solve anything. Hate never yet dispelled hate, only love dispels hate. But, how can we achieve the better world we all know in our hearts is possible, and live in peaceful synergy with each other and with all of nature?

What do you guys think, is the state we're in now just the way things have always been, and always will be, or is there something we can actively do to bring about real change? How do we help create a new type of society of relating to each other as human beings?

To paraphrase R.A. Wilson, man is capable of rationality, but we are not a rational animal. For most people beliefs are based on psychological needs, which mostly translates to believing what others around them believe, a survival instinct for not being shunned by the tribe. The majority of people have smoked cannabis and feel it's not a big deal, even US judges have ruled it harmless. If it were just a matter of having the right information, it should be legal, but it's not.


A democracy relies on free flow of information, which we don't truly have, a handful of giant companies control more than 90% of the information being disseminated.

R.A. Wilson again: "A monopoly on the means of communication may define a ruling elite more precisely than the celebrated Marxian formula of monopoly in the means of production."

I like to think we can lick this. I think that it is certainly possible for those of us with vision and understanding to come up with something better than these archaic systems that humanity is playing with.

This growth oriented capitalism you spoke about is not the way things have always been. The bulk of human history was a very different story. I think that future humanity will look back on this post industrial revolution world as an aberration and a kind of sickness that came from rapid increases in our technology that weren't paced with similar increases in our wisdom. (if we haven't destroyed ourselves)

But consciousness can change rather quickly, and there are certainly a lot more awakened people now than ever before, so... maybe we can pull this through.

I really hate the drug war. So many innocent people's lives being destroyed over this. The drug laws are way too extreme. Anyone who thinks different either thinks that illegal drugs are evil, or they haven't really looked into what's going on in the lives of all the people screwed over or that had their life taken away because of this.

I can accept an argument that says we should feel lucky because we don't live in a place like Iran, but no we do not "have our cake and eat it too". As far as I can tell, we are lucky as long as we don't get caught. I do think some people are at greater risk for being caught, just because whatever environment they're living in. Maybe there's more le, or living in tighter quarters. If you have your own space, and manage to get your hands on some mhrb, then yeah you probably won't be caught. I guess the same goes for any drug really.

I don't believe this is due to lack of effort on LE's part, that's for sure. It seems to me there is a hell of a lot of money spent on finding drugs, keeping them out of the country, and prosecuting people who are found with them. Honestly, what else can the government do other than randomly search everyone and their homes? If they did that, they'd find a lot of drugs, but if they did something like that, the people wouldn't tolerate it. I think we're "lucky" in the west, only because people get large quantities of drugs in, the average person has enough money to buy drugs, and hopefully enough space to hide them, and enough privacy to use them without being caught. Yes the LE targets distributers, but why wouldn't they? But yes they do target users as well. Plenty of people get charged with possession.

[/quote] Here at the nexus we espouse zero tolerance for selling dimethyltryptamine, yet eschew and renounce the powers that enforce that very intolerance. [/quote]

The nexus only discourages selling dmt so it doesn't get more attention, which could lead to further crackdown on the drug, and users, and the plants that provide it. It's not the same at all to discourage selling for reasons, as it is to lock people up for it.




.... the drug laws are not lax, they are enforced, and it is not rare for people to be prosecuted. ???? You will have to further explain your argument, a lot.



But there isn't even really a discussion about legalizing, or even decriminalizing the drugs that aren't proven to be particularly hazerdous. Or even drugs that some say are even therapeutic, like dmt and psychedelics. These drugs are still classed in the same category as meth and heroin, and there's no discussion on changing that. Nevermind legalizing ALL drugs, they're not even talking about legalizing the ones that people see as medicine, and are not responsible for high levels of addictions or physical damage.

And nevermind legalizing ALL drugs. What about decrmininalizing plants? Would that help the legislative nightmare that might arise from people selling all kinds of chemicals?



Pretty good as long as you don't get caught. How can you argue otherwise?

'Bout sums it up.

Responsibility to the responsible: Not giving a lick of consideration to the fallible human nature of those who make no effort to cooperate with what they don't understand, and instead seek to suppress or destroy it rather than confront their own fear.

I'll forgive them when they're buried. Not a day sooner.

In the heat of the conversation here, I never actually got around to answering Orion's questions en toto. I suppose I will go through them and come back to the core of this thread. I guess my passion for this topic is already evident.


I already mentioned how our forgiveness is meaningless so long as we are not in any position to punish. The legal definition of the word "forgive" is to absolve, acquit, exonerate, or otherwise grant amnesty. Clearly this is not something any of us can do.

However, the more colloquial use of the word as "To renounce anger or resentment against" is within our power on a few levels. This is a mixed bag, though. "The Government" is too large and amorphous to think of in such personal terms, in that there are millions of people who work for, or have worked for it, and most of them had nothing to do with the Drug War. Even if limited to people actively involved in jurisprudence or law enforcement... many of them are "just doing their jobs" and are not bad people per se. (Though no one forces them to do evil... they could quit or, better yet, speak out.)

I do my best not to bear anger or resentment in my heart, as it only poisons me, and not the persons responsible for the grievances. Naturally I am only human, and there are times when this anger wells up, and I find that expressing it in some way is better than bottling it up. Denial of what is is not healthy.

In the cosmic sense, I am willing to forgive everyone for everything... even the most evil people, as it is the only path to wholeness and unity. But in a practical sense, I will not forget or forgive transgressions that are still being made. Perhaps Jesus can turn the other cheek and forgive someone while they torture him... but look where that got him.

I say the rational path is to transcend the negative emotions, but still act decisively to eliminate threats and violence directed against me. I am a Kung Fu guy, though, so we tend to go with peace and forgiveness 99.9% of the time... but there is a line where you threaten our lives and those of our loved ones, and where the only solution is to put you down swiftly. You don't try and give love to a rabid dog in your home.


This begs the question of who THEY are? Who actually created the Drug War? Who keeps it going? As far as I know, and contrary to what has been said on this thread... the people never got a say in this. No one voted to go to war. No one gets a say as to what drugs are scheduled or what the punishments are. Even Congress has had relatively little input on these matters.

The people who tend to make these decisions are faceless, un-elected, bureaucrats... these days they are mostly people who inherited the war and never thought to challenge its basic precepts and methodologies. They are not the source of the evil any more than an SS soldier was "responsible" for the Holocaust... which means a little bit.

But the true blame and evil lies with the people who put these policies into place. This means that we have to look at the secret cabals of wealthy and powerful men who clearly played puppet master in this. Hearst and his cronies may be dead, but their leather armchair, snifter of cognac, and Cuban cigar smoking descendants are clearly not done with us. We know who some of them are... but by and large they manage to stay above the fray. People who invest in anti-drug propaganda while building private prisons are surely guilty though.

Are they evil? Yes.

Do they know what they are doing? Yes.

They are not attempting to screw us... they have been raping us for centuries. They are the decedents of the people who promoted genocide on the Native Americans so they could steal their lands. They are vile cancerous scum. They pretend to be pious in public, but can be found at places like The Bohemian Grove praying to Moloch with "mock" human sacrifice.


I believe that what you do with your body should be your business, and that as long as you are not hurting anyone else, there should be no victimless crimes.

I believe that if "freedom of religion" and the right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of hapiness" doesn't mean that we can smoke a joint of homegrown, or ingest spice as a sacrament... then it means nothing, and the hemp it was written on might as well be toilet paper.


Human nature is forgivable. I am not convinced that the people oppressing us are acting out of human nature, though.

Greed to a certain point, avarice in small amounts, and a mild lack of empathy, may be part of what humans are today... but people who lack limits to these things and do not even attempt to check them are sociopaths. It is well known that sociopaths are found in positions of power (CEOs and Politicians for example) at much higher rates than in society at large. Thus, the morality of humanity always appears more pathetically degenerate than it actually is.

Humanity is by and large a caring and lovely bunch of people. They get scared easily, and can be pushed to extreme actions when they are stressed and have their backs to the walls, but I find that people will go out of their way to help strangers, offer up what little they have, and generally do their best to promote peace and goodness. This is especially true of the poor and destitute. I have had villagers who live on 1$ a day invite me for dinner and give me clothing that they could ill afford to spare. Most of them would not hear of taking anything in return, and felt insulted if you tried to refuse their hospitality.

So... Human Nature seems fine to me. Perhaps the people who are doing the evil in the world are not human? Either way, they need to go. It would be nice if they just voluntarily gave up their parasitic stranglehold on us... but if the last few decades are any example, they are just ratcheting up their oppression. If we don't stand up to them, I fear that only worse is in store for us. You don't wanna have your head in the sand when they decide to come and round you up and put you in those huge FEMA camps they've been building.