EDIT: Perhaps I don't keep as cool as i think always. We all judge too much and take things too personally sometimes, jump to conclusions too soon ect. I'm deleting what I had previously written here, to avoid being misunderstood and to avoid stirring up more negative feelings.

This thread is somewhat disorientating to the senses

WTF happened y'all?

How about we politely avoid all the assumptions of each other and if not certain of a persons perspective, ask them.

Humbly speaking (bows out)

I think the government is good to an extent, controlling bull like meth and pcp... some things should just become extinct

but i do not forgive them for classifying every single thing that caught on as "illegal" while hypocritically giving people the chance to drive drunk

I've always said: Shame on anyone who calls nature a drug (that is a real screwed up way to stick your thumb onto nature)

"I think you know me well enough Jamie to know I wouldn't resort to inferences and judgments of what you call different lifestyles, or resort to insults or badgering or making assumptions about others. Or maybe you don't...?"

I do yes, but still it comes off sounding that way..and I think it is too easy at times to forget that our own point of view really is just that..our own. The view of another person might be entirley different from where they are sitting yet equally valid, and often maybe even more valid at times becasue of their experience etc. This is why I feel it is irrelevant to bother with my forgivness..I am not one of those people sitting in a jail cell right now, nor have I had my parents taken from me for such thing..but I have known people who have had to go through both of those and I dont think that people who dont walk in their shoes have opinions that are as informed on this issue as they do. Some of these people are entirely fucked up becasue of the way the drug war has victimized them. One injust act is enough for it to be unforgivable for that person, when their whole fucking world falls apart around them. When your not that person it is easy for people to sit back and rationalize the situation..but it still does not change the situation for that one person. One world taken in such an injust way is too much IMO. This is not a numbers game to me..I dont care about comparing numbers like dicks on a playground..just becasue someone else has more wrongs does not make my wrongs any less wrong. The drug war is wrong and until something is done to make up for all the suffering they have caused and all the worlds that have been destroyed I find it rediculous that this question about forgivness is even being asked.

I like you a lot jbark I just dont think that we can have fully informed opinions on this topic unless we have experience being on both sides of it. It matters not that I can still order mimosa. Mimosa is legal here in canada anyway, and I do know people who have been in prison for cannabis...and remember the guy that pretty much started off the whole movement that made it possible for you to be able to just walk into a store and buy cannabis seeds here is now sitting in a little cage. He fought for our rights and paid an inhumane price that I definatly would not want to have to pay.

"I think the government is good to an extent, controlling bull like meth and pcp... some things should just become extinct"

How do they controll meth and PCP? methamphetamine use is hardly controllable. They would legalize methamphetamine for adults just as they do alcohol, regulate it's use and have viable drug dependancy programs like ibogaine therapy that actaully work to treat the disease.. instead of the bullshit we have today where more prisons just end up being filled up that tax payers pay for, while prison owners get new slaves to work at their prison sweatshops.

Drugs are not going to go away..and moral superiority or drug snobery is not going to solve the problem..it is going to take a mature approach to this from a society whos values are in a different place for this problem to be better dealt with.

The fact that the solution where I live to the rampant heroin problem is to persue heroin possession as a crime, and then set up clinics where heroin users can instead just go get big pharmas methadone at the expense of tax payers is proof for me that they are not controlling anything but their own bank accounts. They wont fund any ibogaine research but they are totally okay just having a population of people addicted to opiates as long as it is the opiates they are providing. The only good I can see that came from that so far is that it lessens disease due to clean needles..but there are far more effective solutions to drug treatment available that dont get any funding at all.

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=11487

I asked for peoples opinions, it's OK for you to say you believe in whichever conspiracy theory you want, but I wish not to see them peddled off over anyone else's take on the matter. If that happens this thread may look too much like a CT based thread and be subject to locking.

I tend not to think of the government as evil, so much as misguided and somewhat driven by fear...its important to remember the people in office are still just people like me and you. They have likely grown up in an environment that restricted them from getting to know the other side of the coin.. once that other side may be revealed one may remain stubborn to what they "know"... we see this a lot- people don't like to find out they've been barking down the wrong tree their whole life... and this can lead to some pretty twisted people who do seem inherently "evil" by nature. Its never that simple though in my opinion.

I guess you gotta draw the line between good and evil somewhere though, as the words do exist for a reason -and the actions of governments are a good candidate for the latter... That said, they probably think they are doing the right thing... initially anyways... I think after a while it comes to downright stubbornness and fear of either being exposed or admitting to themselves they are wrong after initially standing for something so strongly....still... holding grudges isn't really that constructive, whether we agree with their actions and ideas or not. I think seeing what we have in common is probably a more constructive way to deal with these people - seeing them as a separate species isn't gonna help a whole lot

I don't intend to trivialise the actions of governments, cooporations or any other suppressers of all things good by any means, but I tend to see that the people behind this stuff are terribly mislead and confused and this leads them to doing terrible things. As has been echoed many times in this thread.. its all very complicated. Bottom line for me is be wary of labelling people as evil... everyone has their own inner and outer struggles and we don't know what really leads them to their ways

All that said, I am still human - I still observe a lot of hurt, greed, suppression and violence and I react as most other human beings would. I dunno if I could really forgive these people yet for what they've done.. not right now while they are still committing these atrocities and while we are all in the thick of it all, though I can forgive the fact that they are like all of us when it comes down to it. we are all of the same stuff..... I guess so far I can acknowledge.. which someday may lead to forgiveness

I dont think I can forgive them. Their laws on such things as drug use are completely screwed up, and they know it. They understand just as much as we do that things such as psychs help show us the true nature of things, and they do not want us to see what is really going on.

They outlaw these things, yet make it lawful to sell products that dumb people down, and cause serious health issues. IMO they just want to keep us desensitized to the world around us. They want to keep us sickly and fearful, so that we can not change the things that they are doing, or worse yet, realize that a change needs to be made.

In their views, what they are doing is right. In mine, it limits us as a society. If people were freely allowed to experiment with things such as mushrooms, Ayahuasca, smoked DMT, LSA, and even some of the synthetics such as LSD, there would be another revolution and counter culture movement like in the '60s. They know this would be detrimental to their world view and plans, so they keep it from happening.

Because of this, I can not forgive them. They just want to control the masses and create pawns in their sick games. If you think about it, who are the ones that have to suffer and play their stupid games? The people that they govern and control with fear and stupidity.

I really jive with your post, acacian.

It is a very good idea to be wary of labeling people as evil. Like I said in my earlier post, you can never know these people. You may think you know them, but all we ever get is what we see from the media. The media is skewed, while politicians have to always keep up their image. It's just the way the game is played. The only thing that really speaks is a record of decisions, but even then there's no telling why or how those decisions were made. So, I'm always wary of making a judgment.

The fact is, we do live in a democratic system. As such, if the people really wanted an end to the drug war, it would have been done a long time ago. The real reason why it has yet to end is that our type of community is on the fringes. As wrong as the majority is sometimes, our government's stance on these things is a reflection of our society. And yes, people with big money tend to jack things up. Weed was criminalized because the timber owners, as well as companies like DuPont wanted hemp out of the picture. Society could have corrected itself by now, but the real task is changing the majority of people's minds. Sites like the Nexus do well to do that, but progress is never as quick as we like.

The government isnt really evil just dishonest, greedy, and corrupted especially towards capitalism. I sync up with alot you are saying acacian.

The country as a whole is great place but the government often tramples on people's fundamental rights as free human beings, and that is really what is irritating. Some things like:

-Drug Laws of course
-Freedom of expression being restricted for things "unfavorable"
-Changing of the Constitution
-There is literally a regulation and permit in almost every facet of life and society; something is illegal to do just until you pay money and then its not?? Come on now..

SWIM feels that if psychedelic drugs were legal today, society would be in a much happier, peaceful, giving, and even more productive state than currently, maybe even experience the oneness of the world. There would be much less war, people might actually give a damn about a stranger and helping out, there would be less greedy people sitting on piles of money preventing wealth from circulating, and oh maybe people would care about the environment too. Without the ethneogens that free our minds from the capitalistic trance of everyday society, people simply forget about caring for anything besides materialism, job, and the small circle of people they know. There was something really special going on in the 60s before these laws came about and they should be abolished. Keep drugs that ACTUALLY hurt people illegal.

Fully aware of the anti-CT policy here. Of course, it is never cut and dry. If you actually read through that thread, you will see that the acknowledging of conspiracies as they apply to drug policy is not forbidden.

When Trav posted that originally, it was in response to a number of wild threads... but funny enough, many of the very things that were being said then have gone from theory to fact.

1) PRISM
2) Other warrant-less surveillance
3) Banking Conspiracies (LIBOR, HSBC, Chase, Goldman Sachs etc. etc.)
4) Racial Profiling, Stop & Frisk etc.
5) Stuxnet
6) IRS targeting people for audits for political reasons
7) All the WikiLeaks stuff...

The list goes on and on. These things were no less true when we discussed them 3 years ago. We may not have had mainstream media sources to back up the disturbing allegations that came from underground media, and many members here simply didn't want to entertain the idea that any of this stuff could be true... too shocking to their fairly conservative worldviews.

But I have lived through dozens of such scandals and revelations of CT's being real... or worse than we thought. Many of them are integral in understanding why we even have a drug war in the first place... and why it is being enforced so lopsidedly that people on this thread can think it is no big deal, while literally 1.5 million people a year are getting arrested (many of them suffering horribly as their livelihoods, right to vote, freedom and even their families are snatched away from them).

Drug War Conspiracy Facts:

1) Marijuana was made illegal by a well documented conspiracy of business magnates spearheaded by William Randolph Hearst, Dupont, Dow, and others... and aided by Harry J. Anslinger and his vendetta against blacks and mexicans... as well as patently false "yellow journalism" in the Hearst newspapers. (note that Rupert Murdoch is in a very similar position as Hearst was, and continues with his faux news policies)

2) The US government has been caught taking proceeds from illegal arms sales to Iran and funneling them into clandestine cocaine businesses run by and profiting a terrorist army in Nicaragua that brought crack into the inner cities. There is mountains of proof about this, and how the CIA not only directed this, but targeted inner city ghettos and street gangs for the distribution of the, then new, crack cocaine. (See Iran/Contra hearings)

3) The government then turned around and arrested entire generations of black males for possessing as little as 5$ worth of the very drug that the CIA had introduced into their communities and put them to work in slave labor prisons that are often privately owned.

4) Black people make up only 13% of drug users, but account for 55% of all convictions.


I could go on and on... but why bother. If people think that we can discuss the drug war and our ability to forgive without recognizing these clear conspiracies... they are wrong. This is why it is so irksome to hear sheltered, middle class white people blithely talking about how there is no real problem and ending the drug war would be worse than the status quo where they can extract and do drugs with relative impunity. It reeks of racism and classism... not to mention an unwillingness to recognize that they are not immune.

People begin to sing a different tune when one of their buddies narcs on them to save himself. When a SWAT team knocks down your door, shoots your dog, and hog ties you... or when you are serving a 5 year mandatory minimum sentence in a pen with hardened criminals while murders are being let out after 3 years.

This is a divisive topic. But it is on theme for the Nexus. How many Nexians that we love here are on probation or have been recently incarcerated for the victimless crime of daring to control their own brain chemistry?

For anyone to come here and say this is all fine and dandy is offensive to me. It is like when overweight rich kids argue that hunger is not an issue because they have so much food they can throw it away and pay people to suck the fat out of their bellies. It is basically saying that the hungry people living under the bridges, in alleyways and tent cities do not exist.. or worse, that they don't count. That people dying in Africa are inconsequential as long as they can eat deep fried oreos and pancake wrapped sausages on a stick?

Sorry. I have to call people out when they say insensitive things.

After all, who is more qualified to speak out about injustice than the victims? Who has reason to even contemplate "forgiveness?" If you have never been assaulted by police or victimized in this drug war, lucky you... but you are not really qualified to extrapolate and say that this travesty is maybe a good thing. If I had never been raped or known anyone that was, I wouldn't have the unmitigated audacity to pontificate that perhaps the rape situation is not so bad, and the people who get raped are "atypical" and crazy anyway.

For shame.

(BTW, we were also forbidden to mention RCs for a long time here... but now most of the people who were against them (even the policy makers) are not only on the RC bandwagon, but doing them in chat and regularly talking about them.)

I suppose it is fine. Those of us that were ahead of the curve on the now-proven conspiracies and the joys of RC Shulgin chems had to endure some jibing and taunting, but the tide of history was on our side. It is a lot like talking to people that were anti-gay some years ago, but now support gay marriage.

If unconscious behavior is driven by fear/ panic, how can that change?
I've seen my own likewise behavior changing over time, but what initiated that?
Being potentially ready to change might be first condition, but the trigger pulling me over was (I think) certain people having evolutionary intentions projected onto me, and my system resonating to those positively.

Consequently, I always put intentions of warmth, compassion, love, tranquility, evolution, access to wisdom, etc etc, into the hearts of those in power, the bankers, politicians, military top, religious top, CEO's, media makers, business makers, the bullying type on the street, ....

I still doom their actions of unconsciousness though, but meanwhile putting seedlings into their "system" without they knowing it.
Therefore it's a sneaky practice (one does not do for recognition) and actually a bit of fun in that way, like playing cupid but with arrows of "evolution-love-intent". It doesn't need ceremonial moves, just putting intent into someone, just taking contact with the fear-factor in ones being, petting it on the head and say: "You are released of duty, isn't that great, this person is going now going to soften and evolve in peace and gentleness", or something like that.

The farmer sows...
he likely won't see germination soon but he did the job anyway, makes him feel okay and serviceable.

Don't even think it doesn't work, because this affect the overall seed quality.
Entanglement, using it doesn't require mental proof to work

As far as I am aware, both meth and pcp are controlled substances. Although taking DMT for example and some of your posts on this thread, I guess DMT is not controlled to you either.

A tad abrasive, I'm sure most of the members here got the gist of the statement I was trying to make in regards to my opinion towards the thread title

Please do correct me if I am wrong

As for the talk about how horrible meth and pcp are... get a grip. PCP is not such a terrible drug actually. There are certainly better dissos out there, but it is not some demonic force by any means. And, amphetamines have a long and storied usage that didn't seem to bother anyone when it was white housewives who had the prescriptions... when it was only Elvis and Johnny Cash who were addicted to it.

Also, current irrational drug policy merely pushes people to use shoddy street drugs. Meth became popular because it was able to be produced relatively cheaply by anyone who cared to make it. Many of the people who use it would be happy to chew coca leaves, khat, betel nut or other alternatives. If they had insurance, they wouldn't need meth, as they would likely have a script for Methylphenidate (Ritalin & Concerta) or Adderall (a mix of amphetamine salts).

Fact is, that the "bath salts" people are doing now are at least as bad, and most of them are just souped up Ritalin analogs... again fine for white college kids to do when studying for their med school exams. As I said, quite a few kids these days have a prescription for something that could be classed as an amphetamine. But poor hillbillies without insurance and no doctor to write them a script are the devil incarnate because they want to do lines of crystal meth? As much as I dislike stims, and find meth to be a terrible drug, I do see plenty of people who can use it on a weekend party without ruining their lives.

In the end, statistics show that drug abuse goes down with decriminalization and continues to go down with legalization. Many people would switch to a safer drug if it were legal. Part of the reason that RCs are so popular in places like Sweden is that they have no access to weed and good drugs.

I'm not going to 'get a grip' and change my opinion on how I feel about substances like these.

And I am not specifically only speaking of those 2, bath salts would have been mentioned but I'm not sure on its legality, don't care, its not in my boat.

Coming from an area where meth is a HUGE epedemic, where my vehicle was stolen, and I have been mugged over 6 or 7 times and witness all of this all around me EVERY day, I speak from my own experience with this 'demonized' substance.

I am aware of ritalin/amphetamines. I really am. Haha

As far as RC's go, I refuse to take them.

I even went so far as to stop taking lsd, purely to avoid the chance it could be a RC.

So yea, cut me out whatever shape you'd like, it doesn't really matter

Cheers

great posts Hyperspace Fool! some very solid points regarding policy here as well as the issue of substance legality

You have just made my point. Current policies on meth have not kept it from being an epidemic and have done nothing to "control" it as you said in a previous post.

The drug war did not keep your car from being stolen or you from being mugged.

In fact, the drug war is the reason why those things happened to you. If drugs were not illegal, there would be no crime syndicates running the distribution, and addicts would not have to steal for their fixes.

You are entitled to draw your own conclusions from your valid experiences... but I think you are missing some things and coming to a false conclusion.

Studying countries that decriminalized drugs shows us that crime goes down, addiction goes down, and the health of drug users goes up. This is not some mysterious thing that we need to speculate about... we know how this works. It is also not rocket science.

I think your stance on meth and pcp going extinct is childish and naive. Drugs are not going to go away. Even if we had 10x more stormtroopers enforcing the laws, it would still be an epidemic... and you would still have gotten mugged. All that would happen is the prices would go up, the drug cartels would be even better armed and we would have wars in the streets like they have in Mexico... like we did in the worst of the crack epidemic in LA.

I humbly suggest that you think this through a bit more.

I guess then, that the government should not crack down on meth labs.

Its not like I ever said it will happen (extinction). Its wishful thinking. I wish it never existed.

But thanks for that remark.

commercial meths labs shouldn't really need to exist if the plants weren't suppressed to begin with.. if a lot of the original plants were made available you'd see much less abuse of the stronger chemicals synthesized from them. ephedra is a very useful plant for example, still quite strong in effects and much medicinal value... I suspect its illegality has very little to do with synthesis of methamphetamine and more to do with pharmacutical coorporations going out of business. Bring back the plant medicines which are banned .. make them available...and I suspect you'll see the demand for purified compounds lowered significantly..

I won't comment here again. Have fun