Good points. I am in the legalise/educate/tax/healthcare camp because the current policy is not working.
I don"t think there is a silver bullet for the problems related to drug abuse and any change (especially one as radical as legalisation) would take a fair amount of time to settle.

I believe i should be able to do what i want to my body too, but that belief extends to everybody having the same right. People will get messed up whether it is legal or not and drugs are very easy to come by legal or non legal.

Maybe i am an idealist but i long for the days where i can visit a pharmacy and buy some fair-trade Colombian cocaine. The human misery bought about by the drug wars in Central and South America is heart breaking.

As for pimply youths ,soccer mums,business execs and jocks doing psychedelics, i am all in favour of this. Maybe alot of them won"t get it. But some will, and that can be no bad thing. I always thought Joe Rogan was a thinking man"s jock. But i am not 100% sure what a jock is (is it someone who wears a jockstrap and therefore very athletic?).

So i guess my answer is , yes i do forgive the government as long as they leagalise drugs.

Man, when I say small sustainable community I am of course including tribal indigenous societies The list is somewhat on the long side. I strongly disagree with the notion that a return to living in small self sufficient groups would somehow be a backslide. Human societies experiment. One style of living produces happiness and health. the other produces.....a whole lot of really bad things. Much needless suffering. Seeing that one thing works and another thing does not, processing that data, learning and adapting--that's not a backslide sir, that is evolution.

You mentioned cell phones and computers as proof that most everyone here would agree with you that we can not return to tribal living....hmmm, I can only speak for myself. but your comment seems to suggest your real fear of tribal living--you might have to loose your precious digital toys! How will we ever survive? Sustainably produce an mp3 player and you will be hailed as a god. Can't be done. Centralized production, like centralized power, will inevitably fail.

You ask me to name one community that "has thrived and flourished for more than one generation that has sprouted up from within the industrailized world."

Damanhur.


That was easy peezy and (dare I say it) lemon squeezy.

There is more. Twin oaks, for example. No shangri-las though....I'm not sure if shnagri-las, whatever they are, are possible on earth. A new group called the Valhalla project seeks to make small sustainable communities mainstream. I hope they do well.

Damanhur is in Italy. Alex Grey wrote the forward for a book celebrating them.

http://life.gaiam.com/article/u...ity-has-thrived-30-years




So the UN recognizes their existence and accomplishments....so does the painter whos work is featured in a sizable amount of nexians avatars. They've existed for 38 years now.


Grooviness. Disagree? Then do an image search for the term Damanhur. Grooviness indeed.

From what I understand, Damanhur is widely regarded as a cult. I was surprised to hear they have been lauded by the United Nations, but a quick search (and link me if you know a better source) listed only their own website as a source of this information. Oberto Airaudi, their leader, has been described as a cultish demagogue who controls his followers by forcing them to disavow family and friends beyond the borders of the community, and creating an environment which is nigh impossible to leave. Freedom? Or is true freedom the true cost of one of these communities?

For your reading:

http://damanhurinsideout.wordpr...nies/a-damanhurian-life/

http://damanhurinsideout.wordpr...-a-letter-to-the-father/

I am intrigued though and will not be satisfied by a couple of testimonials. I will research this further - thanks for the heads up and I sincerely hope you are both right. However, I did state I wanted one that has survived more than a generation - and with the death of Airaudi on June 23 of this year after 37 years of the community existing, the jury is still out.

JBArk

what the hell is my forgiveness worth?

Is it worth the suffering of children without mothers and fathers becasue they have been captured as slaves to live in cages for wealthy men who own prisons?

Is it worth the suffering of mother and fathers, brothers, sisters and friends who watch the people they love captured as slaves to live in cages for wealthy men who own prisons?

What about the people sitting in those cages right now, cut off from their children, mothers, fathers, wives, husbands and friends for the non violent victimless "crimes" they committed?

Or is it worth the countless people who overdose on prescription drugs every year, or die of diseases they cause due to our governments choice to favor large pharmaceutical company interests over the welfare of it's people?

Why would my forgiveness be worth that? My forgiveness is irrelevant at the moment. Go ask all those other victims if they feel like forgiving the people who did/do this to them.

It is easy to stand back and rub our own nuts over how great we have it compared to other people, unless you are actaully one of those people sitting in cage atm being a prisoner to psychopaths.

There is nothing for me to forgive. I understand that pretty much all of our society and everyone it it is insane. Western culture is a completely schizophrenic entity and it's people are like the walking dead. I feel more sorry for everything about this culture than anything else. Forgivness is not really the issue..and it wont solve the problems we all carry.

I truly wish we could take all the hatred I see here, and elsewhere, all the indignation and wrath and anger toward the so-called and much maligned "system" and the "walking dead" and channel it into something that would actually make a difference in the world. I respect you all, but I really must say witnessing this colossal waste of energy and emotion demoralizes me somewhat.

Can't we be the ones who change the tide of hate? Don't fight fire with fire. Everyone just gets burned that way.

I don't know all your stories, so maybe the degree of hate is justified, that is a question only you can answer - but it is still a horrendous waste of human energy any way you slice it, and the irony is the outcome is simply more hate.

JBArk

It's a typical diversion people use resorting to accusation of people being full of hate etc when they are simply being realistic about a situation like this.

I have not heard anyone else even use the word hate here besides yourself. Im not going to sugar coat reality because I pride myself for my culture, and that does not by defult result in me having hatred.

Things are far more complicated than that in reality.

"do you forgive the government" -> Is the government asking for our forgiveness and repenting?

Twin oaks, Zendik and Damanhur have all existed longer than 25 years.

I'm not going to bother trying to prove that they are not all cults.

I could demonstrate how the Zandik Tribe, the Free Masons and the Fund For Public Interest research group all seemed cult-like to me....man, there's cults all over the place, many of which are not sustainable, nor are they even communities that live anywhere near each other.

I do hope that Damnanhur is not as controlled as the article suggests (thank you for sharing that)...but if it is, so what? I won't live there then. They have some cool art though.

I've visited many communities, lived within a few. Some seemed creepy. Some were cool. The reason why I endorse small sustainable communities is simply this: if human society is not sustainable, then it will not continue. I have found good, non-controlling communities and not so good communities. Some where they try and control your thoughts, some where they do not. I don't want to talk smack, nor reveal too much about my identity so i'll leave it at that.

First off, in order to forgive... one must first have passed a judgment and levied a penalty of some sort. Having a negative opinion of something does not qualify, unless you are in a position of power and can institutionalize your prejudice.

Obviously, none of us are in such a position, so the concept of forgiveness is kind of pointless.

The question you seem to be asking is more "Are you angry with the government?" and if so... can you get past it?

On this count, I think you have to have had little or no contact with the drug war not to be angry about it. When I read what Jbark has written here, it turns my stomach. Sorry man, but you seem so ridiculously naive and complacent in your assessments, that I can only assume you live in a very sheltered place... and are at least middle class... and white... and lucky.

I would go line by line and dismantle your pedantic arguments, but it really comes down to this:

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Catholic.

Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.

You think we are okay and shouldn't rock the boat?

According to the FBI, law enforcement agencies made 1,531,251 drug-related arrests in 2011. Approximately 49.5 percent of those arrests — roughly 757,969 — were for marijuana. Of those marijuana arrests, the vast majority, about 87 percent, were for simple possession.

The fact, friend JBark... is that someone gets arrested for drugs every 21 seconds in the US... and this says nothing about the paramilitary wars being conducted abroad. The wanton destruction of communities in Latin America etc. etc.

If you don't see this as a travesty, a horrible stain on our freedom... I am afraid I might have to regard you as a LEO shill. Sorry man, but your 6 posts here have made me mad. I know you are playing devil's advocate... but still.

You are basically saying that as long as middle class white kids who don't dress funny or have dreadlocks can do drugs without being targeted, then we should not care how it is for all the poor victims of "stop and frisk?" Dude...

I had LEO stop me on the highway for no reason, and terrorize us for hours as they took our car apart down to the frame... and after finding nothing, they still took our car and all our money and left us by the side of the road 400 miles from home... without charging us with a crime. They could do this to us because under the drug war... property is guilty until proven innocent. 4th amendment be damned... we had to hire a lawyer and pay an equal amount to what they took from us (around 10k) just to get our day in court... and after we won and proved that the money was legit, they didn't apologize... they sneered at us and indicated that they would get us next time around. It cost us more money to win the case than what we got back in the end.

Growing up in a real city... unlike where you must live... I was regularly assaulted by cops . Arms twisted behind my back, handcuffed for no probable cause while they ran us through the system hoping they had a reason to shit on us further. Cops would come up sneakily on us and immediately point loaded guns to our heads. "Freeze, goddammit... keep your hands where I can see them." And if you didn't freeze, they were happy to blow your hippie head right off.

I lived through Operation Dead End... (google it) where hundreds and thousands of peaceful hippies were put in jail on 10 year to life sentences for simply having some acid at a Dead Show. And even worse, was that they flipped so many heads that it became a paranoia scene where you couldn't trust anyone anymore... even people you knew well.

FUCK THE DRUG WAR.... and fuck anyone who defends it.

Sorry.

That is my 2c.

Oh, and OP? No peddling of conspiracy theories? Hahahah, obviously you don't wanna discuss this issue at all then.

All i can say to this is - take a deeeeeep breath.

I will do you the courtesy you afforded me and not pick apart your post line by line. Suffice to say it is rife with assumptions and that unless you are part of a "leo" yourself there's no way you can know anything about me, so you are just out of line. Your stories always sound so impressive HF, and i can only conclude you have lived a pretty crazy active life: i.e. atypical, i.e of no real bearing on the discussion at hand. Try not to get so mad. It's just another opinion, and based on your myriad assumptions about me you clearly have no idea who i am, so why get your knickers in a knot about some guy you don't know? You don't like me. I knew that before this post and care even less after.

I am sorry you got mad, but if shutting my mouth is what it takes to prevent that, then all i can say is that is a real shame.

JBArk

"and i can only comclude you have lived a pretty crazy active life: i.e. atypical, i.e of no real bearing on the discussion at hand"


You got to be kidding...
So anyone who lives a different lifestyle does not have a valid viewpoint?
I must say I am finding this pretty discusting at the moment.

I agree with this, less moaning, more action.

What he said, although I think that if hundreds of thousands of heads were put away for ten years each as a result of that op, well wed have to build even more prisons and Hawthorne blvd wouldn't be full of trust fund babies with their hands out...
Anyway, yeah forgive the govt huh?
I dunno, when I was 16, and the Afghanis were fighting the Russians, in a conflict the US was not supposed to have any dog in, large amounts of hashish, 2 oz bricks, stamped with gold "freedom for Afghanistan" logos were flooding the market. Akin to the flood of heroin into eastern Europe as a result of the current war WE ( the US ) are engaged in, we, as high school deadheads, were supporting a war by getting high.

It opened my eyes wide to the fact that what my government said and did were often dichotomous, from a moral stance, like my brother I idolized who waved a lit cigarette in my head as he warned never to do that.

Even though I grew up in a conservative household, in Georgia, I was cognizant at an early age of the things "our" representatives do that is not in our best interest. The lust for power and greed that has taken over and driven our legislators and representatives has taken capitalism, a concept I will wholeheartedly support with my dying breath, into the realm of unsustainability unless we begin to place even further restrictions upon the endless capitol generating activities banks and corporations that are in bed with our governments agents.

People no longer get into public service as, well, a public service, its like doctors- many of them enter the profession not out of some sense of altruism, though few will admit it, they enter strictly for the monetary advantages of being a high-paid doctor. And that's fine, there, but when the people we vote into power to speak for us, in this democratic republic-begin to listen not to their constituency but only to the special interests that populate the lobbying groups in DC, we have a big problem, and we have had this problem for some time. I think that people are slowly coming out of the cathode ray haze enough to realize that they have sold themselves into slavery in exchange for a myth, that of false prosperity. No one owns anything anymore, all their stuff is bought on credit. As the song in my iPod at the moment says " they are tired of the dreams they used to have- they are sick to death, of their beautiful lives ( M. Gira; SWANS )

I will not forgive the people who have sold me a lie, that took decades of pain and confusion to sort out.

That being said, I feel that as a whole, those of us who are aware, and awake, and cognizant of the crimes that are committed in our names with every dollar, or billions of them that are spent on keeping these archaic and useless structures in place, wheezing out their factory smoke into our empty lungs as a consolation for fulfillment, we must work WITHIN the systems we can tolerate, be it academia, or whatever your field is, and VOTE, and WRITE, and SPEAK.

I hate the things that are done in my name, as an American, and as a Human being, that go so far against my ethics as those things, but I do not wallow in frustration, any more, I believe that we have the voiced, we are the way to gently push things in the direction of peace, and do it with both reason and love, we will succeed. I wont live to see it, but maybe your children will, to see an America that is truly prosperous, where the concept that we once worried about stupid stuff like food in our bellies to the degree that we are unable to look for, find and pursue both our true selves and our Divine Wills anathema to logic, an incomprehensibility.

it will be.

Perhaps badly worded. I apologize jamie and HF. I meant nothing to do with a different lifestyle and am sorry it appeared that way. It was a reference to HFs quite startling stories from his own life (and just to clarify, I am not calling into question their veracity). And I truly meant that someone who has lived through all the adventures he recounts is not typical of anyone in any lifestyle I know. I still think it's a fair point.

I think you know me well enough Jamie to know I wouldn't resort to inferences and judgments of what you call different lifestyles, or resort to insults or badgering or making assumptions about others. Or maybe you don't...?

respectfully,

JBArk

Now you want to patronize me? Dude... keep it. If I needed you to tell me when to breathe, I would be dead.

You say I am atypical, crazy and that my experiences are of no bearing? I say you are atypical, and your sheltered life has less bearing than my accurate statistics... 1.5 million arrests per year.

You sound like an apologist. Just like the people who said Nazi Germany wasn't so bad because they didn't personally know any Jews or Gypsies.

Despite all of this, I don't "not like you" JBark. I have appreciated many of your posts over the years, and think you are generally a good fellow. But I do think you are clueless and wrong on this issue... and your posts are offensive.

You don't know anyone who has been arrested? Shit, I know a dozen or more people who have been killed by LEO. I have had them hit me with their clubs in my kidneys just because I look like I might use drugs.

I had to call you out man. You simply have no idea what you are talking about. And calling my stories "impressive" is an odd way of saying that they don't count... I suppose you mean that they are unbelievable or that I am a liar?

Really man, it is people like you that keep this drug war going.

I have been extremely active in this. I personally got over 1000 signatures for 215, and was there when the initiative was being written.

I speak at rallies. I have marched in the streets, and circulated numerous petitions and initiatives in 30 years of being an activist.

Less moaning? Speak for yourself.

Wow.

Done.

Actually this statement seems to validate some of the things HF said. To whom is the discussion at hand directed? You said in your first comment that "we have it pretty damn good". You're implying here a quite small subsection of all the people affected by the drug war. I didn't take it as you meaning "as long as I can get my root bark and grow my stuff, I shouldn't really complain", but now it looks like you did mean that.

If we were in the situation where we could actually give or deny forgiveness, would you only consider the implications their acts had on your particular life?

I was not aware that i was moaning. Cmon guys, lets not lose sight of the love! The saying "do not judge another til you have walked a few miles in their shoes" (or words to that effect) springs to mind when i think of forgiveness.