Well, the feeling I get from my breakthrough ego-death experiences is that all of space/time (meaning the entire universe throughout all time including any higher dimensions and of course all conscious beings) is of the same single consciousness.

If this is so than the experience of other beings and objects isn't an act of "possession" at all but merely a shift in perspective.

Well, what does a game like checkers mean? It has no real meaning. There are firm rules governing the way the game must be played, but there is no reason it can't be a 10x5 board with 5 checkers per player. There is no reason to accept turn-based play or definite square location for the checkers. No reason to accept any rules except to play.

So it is with discussion. To ask about the ethics of possessive tripping is no less worthy of a discussion than to ask about the ethics of killing one person to save five vs letting one person die to save five.

Maybe this explains why we sleep? To let another being possess our body for a short period, we become ethereal, and they enter us and can experience our life or vice versa us to them when they sleep. What you have said is obviously speculation and theory. However it parked some thought in my mind! Keep up the travels brother maybe one day you will find out for sure.

again , you seem to be making no sense

the analogy you're using is incorrect at best ,

i am also not arguing with possession and all , people can believe whatever they want to believe

anyways i already mentioned , how thankful i was , why bring this up again ?, if your intention is to justify the fact its worthy of discussion , i am not arguing with that , yet without questioning the OP there can be no discussion

discussion is all about questions and answers , if there are no questions there will be no answers thus without questioning the OP there can be no discussion , even a simple conversation requires questions back and forth , even the OP here is asking questions whether any of it is true or not , or have we experienced it ( read the original post )

if you believe the discussion can happen without questions and answers , then prove it , for the way i see it you reasoning is deeply flawed and that is the reason why i questioned you instead of the OP as his reasoning seems to be way more correct , even if the thread is about possession

i would definetly like to see a flaw in my reasoning if you can point it out perhaps it will help me evolve , otherwise what i have written will help you evolve , eitherways a lot of potential evolution is at stake

also once again thank you for this

I meant to say that there is simply no reason to question the premise of the OP. To ask "why does this matter?" is to miss the point. It matters no more than the game of checkers can matter. I used the example of an actual board game because it can serve as a useful analogy. As I see it, any sort of discussion is a game much like the board game. Only instead of rules governing a board and pieces we have rules governing symbols.

as you seem to believe that the discussion is like a board game , i would like to use this same analogy to put my point forward

asking the OP "why does this matter " is not missing the point , it is only another move in the game , the answer is another move and so on , as the game has no meaning so does the question , its only a move

if the game has to be played it must have many moves and any move is as good as the other as it only serves the function of helping players play the game , there is no right or wrong move , its only a move as long as one want to play the game

the moves do become right or wrong depending on the fact players want to win , yet the game is not about winning , its about playing , like i am doing right now

people i am just having fun , i hope you don't take what i write very seriously as its really all fun and games for me

peace everyone

Handel, I have only one question after all this discussion. Have you smoked DMT?

No, but I'd like to (I have no way to get access to it so far). But ultimately, it doesn't matter if I have tried the spice or not. The question came after reading trip reports where SOME users described looking like aliens themselves. I always research before I get myself into something. Somehow though, I found some of the replies here being defensive, or borderline rude. I'm not judging anybody. I simply asked a question. I read philosophy, so that question popped into my mind, and I thought it was worth discussing. It's not about me, it was just an honest question that I found interesting.

I want to try and calmly and rationally explain why it is that some users may have described appearing as aliens themselves from the perspective of a DMT smoker. You see, when you smoke DMT, you wind up in a space of geometrical patterns we like to call hyperspace (not trying to patronize you, but I need to start at the "beginning" ). Now sometimes there will be entities in these spaces, and sometimes not. In fact, it's not always clear if they're present because a lot of the time they are composed of the very same geometries and colors and patterns as the environments they're in like chameleons or as if they were themselves the environment [As I write this, I think back to the first post I made in this thread where I described myself feeling as the environment and I wonder now if that places the entity and I in similar "geometric" states in that kind of a mindstate] but in any case, the point of this is that when they come back and look at themselves and see themselves as aliens, then it may simply be the overlaying of the geometries of hyperspace on top of other people or their own reflection, as tends to happen, so since the patterns of hyperspace are like that of the entity, it can be easy to get a bit confused.

It must also be considered that when they say they look "alien" they don't mean that they actually look like outer-spacey aliens, but rather they are using 'alien' in the sense of the word to mean "weird"/"odd"/"abnormal" To many DMT smokers, this explanation would be quite satisfactory I would imagine considering that people and just about everything that one can look at upon returning from a DMT experience looks weird, and funny and different in some way. I have called the way things look "alien" many a time without invoking the sense of aliens the beings.

Ultimately I do feel that it's important whether or not you've tried DMT because it's fair game for anybody to wildly speculate about anything they well please, and it was an interesting and creative and novel idea, but I believe the reason that it hasn't been raised before is because it's actually quite a bit off the mark, so most of the DMT users here probably wouldn't have raised the question. I think it is important to constantly question ourselves no doubt, but after assessing your initial question, I personally feel that in this particular case, the ethics of possessive tripping isn't a real pertinent issue due to its unlikliness IMO. So yes, we can speculate - Rick Strassman made a bunch of speculation that probably won't end up being true - but we also have to know when to shelve an idea.

Okay. Here's a question: what if every time you eat a brusselsprout, an orphan drops dead in India? Who do you think you are eating brusselsprouts, you soulless son of a bitch? I mean, if this is even a possibility (and it's both as logical and likely as your particular posit), then what kind of amoral bastard are you anyway, blissfully chomping away on your brusselsprouts when you know full well that what you are doing may be triggering the deaths of orphans?

Your question is ludicrous. I'm sorry, it just is. If it amuses you to pontificate, by all means carry on, but you'd be better served by just trying it yourself than obsessing on irrelevancies.

The bottom line here is this: any DMT trip reports you read are to be taken with a grain of salt. They're only metaphors, because what actually occurs is not remotely reportable, you dig? They're attempts to decode and rationalize a highly abstract landscape - but the points don't line up, the lines don't intersect, and that state of being is just too divergent to accurately articulate. It's just not possible in any real way, so what we're left with are stories concocted to try and make sense of what we've experienced.

But don't take my (or anyone's) word for it. Smoalk it and see.

Smoalk it and see.

Smoalk.

It.

And.

See.

Well, the game has no meaning but the moves do have meaning if you accept the rules of the game. If everything is permitted then the playable game collapses and we're back to where we started. A move that questions the relevance of a game is one that would lead to collapse. Indeed, it is a move that attempts to strike at the very foundations that would make it meaningful in that particular context. This type of move must be against the rules the same way that infinite regresses are against the rules in the game we call logic.

I don't eat Brussel Sprouts. For this reason obviously. Nothing to do with the taste. It's just plain cruel. And i have eliminated all vegetables from my diet, just to be sure.

Much safer to kill forthright and eat flesh - it is now my moral imperative.

And i think now my second moral imperative must be to never smoke DMT again, just in case. Possessing, being possessed or accidentally harming hyper-entities just sucks my life of meaning.

ABS league president (anti-brussel sprout),

JBArk

With Salvia, I have experienced something like this, with a definite tactile sense of "becoming" an object or another person/being in another time/space dimension. Often I've felt that I've "switched" bodies with someone from a different time or place.

Consciousness can manifest in many different forms. Slapping our ego onto these forms may produce an illusion of separateness, making a convenient way to experience this magical place we call reality.

"Every sentient entity in the multiverse is both an observer and an object of perception, and the source from which they emanate is the Primary Observer, which is unadulterated Consciousness itself. Before emanation, perception can not take place because perception involves both an observer and that which is observed."

"[The universe is apparently] constructed (and thus in such as way as to be able) to see itself. But in order to do so, evidently it must first cut itself up into at least one state which sees, and at least one other state which is seen. In this severed and multilated condition, whatever it sees is only partially itself...But, in any attempt to see itself as an object, it must, equally undoubtedly, act so as to make itself distinct from, and therefore, false to, itself. In this condition it will always partially elude itself."

"What better way for God to know himself than to divide his awareness so that he can observe objectively as Creator and subjectively as Creation?"

-Jim DeKorn

Great stuff as always. Sums up my thoughts really well.

The Shadow out of Time, by hp lovecraft, is a great story.

dear brother rap , you can make as many meanings as you like , yet if you have been paying close attention you'll know that i already won the game , and now i am opening my champagne and celebrating ,

do you want a glass aswell ? there is plenty to go around ,

if you're looking for something that satisfies your logic , well its a little beyond all that now

again thank you for this , also brother how many times i have to thank you before you stop giving me such pleasurable gifts of laughter

also do you like brusselsprouts ?

I also agree with art having read you haven't experienced DMT OP, I suggest try it although I still entertain your thoughts a little, do I agree personally this is the case no? But you still gave me something to think about which is cool. AS Art said smoke it and see, he is correct DMT is nearly impossible to explain the experience you see things that humans don't have words for, colors that don't exist in our knowledge and lack of color at the same time, shapes that trancend each other into other shapes. you can experience not only other worlds but also lack of worlds or total darkness. Emotions that range from happiness to intense sadness and then back again, I've experienced every emotion all at once death and rebirth. Countless lifetimes. So many things can happen, and only once did I ever experience an entity well twice, but only once did I SEE the entity the second time I only felt the entity and it vocalized or gave its thoughts to me.