I've read countless of trip reports online. It's sort of my new hobby, love them. :-)

It's commonly accepted among those who believe that a DMT breakthrough is more than a mere hallucination, that the human soul taps into an extra-dimensional, global consciousness when tripping, and then lands into another world. There a lot of things take place, most often good, but some times, "bad".

Whenever there's an actual mirror involved, the person never looks like he does in his own body, or even how he would expect his own soul to look like. I've read a lot of cases where the psychonaut has the same form as the entities around him (or the entities that live in the planet/dimension tripped to). "I was made of light, just like the elves", someone wrote. "I was just as disgusting as the slimy, dark creatures around me" someone else wrote.

Is it possible that our "trips" are merely consciousnesses exchange with other entities, or even things (some people have experienced what it feels to be inanimate things, that happen to also share the global consciousness)? Basically, what I'm suggesting is, could it be that every time we trip, we POSSESS another state of being. We look through its eyes and we react through its body, since that would be our only way to function in their world.

I don't buy for a second that we just show up there with only our bare soul. Maybe in some higher dimensions where only souls live, that could be possible. But for lower dimensions, where there is a physicality similar to ours, we HAVE to possess another being in order to function through it. If we don't, then we're a ghost in that realm, and it's possible that no one will notice us we're there. We'd be ignored. But that's rarely the case.

The elves don't seem to care that we might be possessing one of their own. In fact, they seem to be ecstatic that a new friend stopped by and wanted to create stuff with them! Yay! Let's play together and make stuff!

But lower beings (not the super-duper bad ones), usually seem to be very unhappy when such a possession takes place. They usually try to force the person to leave their realm -- not unlike how the shamans, or the Catholic church would fight the possession of a human. In fact, it might be that every time we trip, we end up in a random world because we can only possess the weakest of beings (along the ones that consciously allow it, like the elves). So it could basically be a cosmic crapshoot as to where we land every time.

So, I ask you. If any of the above is true (and there are certainly a lot of IFs there), and "trips" are often nothing but "possessions" materialized via hacking the Global Unconsciousness Network (that all beings/things in all the realms are part of), what right do we have to force our soul in a weak being? Why put another being into sleep, or throw him out of his body temporarily (but for seemingly a very long time in the DMT timescale)?

How would we like it if one of these beings was taking over a human, and wreck all sorts of havoc to its life, not necessarily because it's a bad entity, but simply because it's different, and can't integrate into our world? How ethical would break-through trips be in that case?

I'm not trying to judge anyone here for their trips btw. But I think the above is a valid question, if not a somewhat philosophical one. In fact, it might be possible that a lot of trippers haven't thought of the issue from that angle, so it might be useful to discuss.

I don't meant to be disrespectful in any way, but I think this question is irrelevant in all ways. It is based on assumptions as you say yourself. Would it not be a better thing to just focus on ethics that we DO know matter in our worldly lives and to take back from the psychedelic experience what we can in order to be able to act with more compassion an solidarity?

Actually, a lot of these "assumptions" were gathered from DMT reports. Even if they remain "assumptions", they are widely reported, so I think that this makes the question posted valid.



This equates that in order to have "more compassion and solidarity" in our lives, we need the psychedelic experience. This is simply not true. You can be a great human being without ever having done psychedelics. So if you realized that you're harming another being via your trips, would you still call that "compassion"? Or do you confine "compassion" to this Earth alone?

So the original question about ethics still stands, and in fact, your reply proves that it demands further discussion, I think.

What if the action of you smoalking DMT is put into effect by the being you switch with wanting to experience our reality, the reason for preflight anxiety is because this other being puts into play his dimension shifting game and this initiates "the call" that you get from DMT. Then even though a part of you is worried you hit your pipe and boom.

You now enter the other being but you have not chosen to be there, you just think you have, but you did not inniate the process of exchange. Your position in existence is the result of another being wanting to rummage through the draws in your room or sit in the woods or in a grassy field.

It is your basic hyperights that are being exploited.

No, because that would mean that before you hit the pipe you're pre-possessed already.



Highly unlikely, since most people when smoking DMT can't even move. I don't think there's an exchange of souls going on, in fact, from my readings, where you end up, is determined after you enter the vortex (sometimes guided by entities, sometimes not).

That is an interesting thought. Possibly you could conjecture the PCP rampage, which users aren't usually aware of having committed.

Your evidence is entirely based on hearsay. Let me put it like this. When I have a trip, that's my own personal trip, for which I was there, even moments after coming back, I have a hard time picturing what I had just experienced even though I had just experienced it. Now add to the fact that it's virtually impossible to put into words so all sorts of crude metaphors, figurative language, inaccurate analogies and so on come into play to very superficially describe what had just transpired. Now if you were to read such a report, you would then be using your imagination which is equipped in no way to think of what hyperspace is like, and then come up with your completely inadequate translation of my translation of bad metaphors for a poor memory.

This is why you're not being taken seriously. To wildly speculate, much less to accusingly point the finger framing this as if people are breaking some kind of spiritual-ethical code by possessing "innocent helpless entities" is unfounded. If you haven't been there, you have no idea what it's like. If you've been there, you still really don't even know what it's like for someone else. I can assure you that for myself personally, it doesn't feel like I'm in any body at all other than my own, and during a breakthrough "out of body experience" if I'm possessing anything it would be the entire experience, as there is no body - I am simply everything I perceive in that state at once, for there is no longer a subject-object/observer-observed relationship.

Exactly, your a machine elf's drug play thing, when they want you they make you smoalk DMT.

Haha they sing and they sing while you hear the calling! "Come on!" "hit the pipe!" "its going to okay!" while the little elves are laughing their asses off.

But on a serious note I think this question has very little weight to hold. Their are so many possibilities of mad and insane logic that you would get so lost. Of course it is possible. But if it is. What does that change? We have no power over this anyways, the effects of DMT are pretty out of hand no matter how many trip reports you read. You find one common factor. Unpredictability. And it happens to all of us. What the fuck did I just see?! All I am saying is that sure this could be happening, but even if it is. It doesn't change anything at all.

First of all, I'm with 3rdI in that I see no reason it can't go both ways. What if certain illnesses (mental disorders, cancer, etc) are manifestations of such possessions?

Otherwise, my response to your question would have to be that if such beings' bodies are so easily used by us, then who says they belong to the original beings in the first place? In other words, perhaps what you are taking from these other beings does not really belong to them. After all, if one can live without the body, then what is the importance of claiming one as a possession? Perhaps all bodies (including ours) are public domain bodies.

I have never felt like I was in a body that wasn't mine during a trip (even if I am in a nonphysical "body" ), and entities have never confused me for somebody else, which is something I'd expect if I were possessing another being's body. I have never experienced anything that made me think that I was possessing another being during a DMT trip, and I don't see any reason to seriously consider the ethics before proving to myself that this possession phenomenon is actually happening. There are plenty of hypothetical problems that raise ethical issues, but why waste time considering their respective ethics before verifying the problems themselves or considering the ethics of more immediately "verifiable" problems, as Elpo said?

This is all it is. It's not like DMT experiences can be proven. I just make the best I can with the information I have.



Maybe your trips were not of the kind of the ones I've read about. But others, can put into words easily how they were chased away by other entities in the realms they entered, and that they physically looked like them. Maybe in your trips, you're entering more abstract realms, or higher realms, but not everyone's reaching those, or not always.



If you have reason to believe it's possible, or that it has happened to you, then you have the power to not hit the pipe again, so you don't take the risk of harming another entity.



Fair enough.

Don't underestimate the power of hearsay

Buddhism as it is today is one of the most influental passings of etiquette in the world. All based on hearsay of one guy sharing his experience with others.

Okay Handel, I think that you have brought this thread far enough for me to ask.

Why does this matter? Why is this even relevant? Why bring it up in the first place.

It seems like a very flimsy thing to do, read a bunch of trip reports and try to create a whole theory, that in my mind, won't effect a single aspect of the DMT journey.

Anyways, I am glad to see this, people need to argue more around here! haha

Peace,

Walter

Because this was a question worth asking in my mind. If it's true, then we are probably perceived as a demonic entity ourselves! I was interested in the ethical implications.

Why would it be demonic, or even something we are able to possess? If people are saying that they look like the entities they meet. That's probably due to an amount of ego death, so they just take on what their environment is. They become an embodiment of the trip.

Since this is all wild speculation, I'm going to baselessly say that you can only enter entities that want you there, that are asking for it in fact, so ethically speaking you should smoak moar or you are crushing the dreams of the 4th dimensional aliens that want nothing more than to feel connected to humans. This explains why entities are always so excited to see trippers in hyperspace. To be taken over by a human is a sign of great blessing in their culture and often results in a higher social status for the creature, often being called a Touched One. Many practice meditating day and night in an attempt to become an empty vessel which they believe makes you more likely to become taken over. This, however, is mere hearsay as no conclusive studies on the subject have been done by entity scientists.




This game is fun.

Or maybe the entities are just illusions of the mind produced while tripping?

That seems to solve the problem of morality nicely.

Well, you say that there are lower and higher beings. The higher beings welcome the opportunity to let a lower being possess them while the lower beings are afraid. But, indeed, if there are truly lower and higher beings like this, then there is an ethical imperative to ascend from lower to higher for the difference is not just a matter of apples and oranges. If lower beings come in contact with higher beings, their consciousness will thus expanded and since their resistance is based purely on incomprehension of higher states of being, it is unjustified.

As for why one should discuss this? Basically, because it's possible to hold a discussion on the subject. To question the OP is like asking why one should play a board game.

how did come to this conclusion ?

and since i am not questioning the OP , then perhaps we can continue playing the board game , whatever it is

thank you for this

well reality is a byproduct of the brain so any reality we experience will still be the doing of our own physical brain & i have not crossed any scientific fact to say otherwise

-2j