There have been a few different videos/studies done on Vipassana meditation in jails, and the results have been good. One was in India, the other in Nebraska I believe, and based upon the video, it looked very promising. Granted, ten days of meditation is not a rigorous psychedelic regimen, but it's a gentle facing of one's demons. I think that certain prisoners who display good behavior could maybe be groomed for such a thing. ie, meditation courses, watching movies like The Spirit Molecule, reading related books, and undergoing counseling. I think if they could become familiar with themselves, even vaguely, they could benefit from the mirror of psychedelics, and I would almost go so far as to say I would trust such a rehabilitated person back in society.

I look at sociopathic behavior as a severe warping of ego (not in all cases obviously) and that the right practitioner and chemicals could do amazing things to bringing a person back to their essential energy. Perhaps in cultures of the future, something like this will be possible.

You can be my warden anytime!

But seriously, I don't think this would be very effective, the way people respond to psychotropics is as varied as the people themselves, there would be no method to reliably measure success. Aside from the fact that, although high in dose, the effects are still temporary and any "insight" would fade over time. One person may take one 20mg dmt dose and be changed for life, the next can smoke 80mg every day for years and remain unchanged.

I have to say that I find this whole idea a bit ludicrous, and it's hard to believe that it's inspired a two page thread discussing pros and cons.

You are seriously proposing the idea of giving serial killers a handful of psychedelic experiences and then releasing them back into the wild (not to mention pulling the old switcheroo, so that when they think they're getting a lethal injection they instead whiz off to hyperspace...)?

Your assumption that psychedelics are some kind of panacea or fast track to baseline enlightenment is a bit naive, don't you think? Loads of LSD use didn't prevent Charles Manson or any of his followers from becoming rabid psychopaths. To the contrary, it probably went a very long way toward fueling the megalomania and messianic belief systems that made them what they ultimately became. Some people are wired for violence. Some are wired for a lack of empathy. Do you really believe that introducing heavy tryptamines into the mix is likely to radically alter this? Just as likely, what you would be doing is torturing them - which is something that is generally frowned upon in civilized society (in theory, if not in actual practice).

We see everyday in this forum how some take these experiences at complete face value and use them to validate their pre-existing belief systems. Lord knows you can interpret them in any infinite number of ways. The idea of someone who is already compelled for whatever reason to hurt or kill people being introduced to a radically altered state of being open to infinite interpretations just strikes me as a recipe for disaster.

i like the idea but not on murderers, but politicians! well thery almost the same, that would have a more positive effect on society

I see where your coming from.

Respectfully Art, the thing about your argument that I find flawed is that Charles Manson and the family were obviously not given any sort of intensive guidance or therapy by any one who knew what they were doing at any point.

Charlie was the "therapist" there, so I don't really think there is a realistic comparison that can be drawn between people using LSD for kicks and someone being given psychedelics in a tightly controlled environment by trained professionals.

Also, just to clarify I never proposed that we give any one a handful of psychedelics and "turn them lose". I mentioned that these people would most likely have to be strictly monitored for the rest of their natural lives. I will admit that, looking back on my first post I see I wasn't really clear on this.

I don't really see the administration of psychedelics to psychopaths by therapists as torture. I do personally think that putting someone on death row to await death by electrocution is a form of psychological torture.

I don't really see this idea as any more ludicrous than executing someone, of course that's just my opinion on the matter.

I see your point, but this is a direct parallel with 1984. The "Ministry of Love" lovingly graced people (supposed criminals) with their deepest, darkest, most irrational fears. It left people a husk, and they turned them loose to finally live a free life, but they were destroyed.

I don't believe in the death penalty mostly because of the "what if we're wrong" factor. But beyond that, it doesn't make things right to kill them. So, I agree the death penalty is wrong, but I really don't think it's possible to reform some people. There are people who are dominated by their reptilian brain, and they use their frontal cortex as a way to blend in and scheme, rather than be "human".

For crimes of passion, I think it's a different story. For the man who kills another man for sleeping with his wife, well that was poor judgment. People like this may benefit from some form of therapy.

Where would the line be? I sure as hell don't want our corrupt twisted government to use the power of this thing on their civilians, atrocities committed or not.

I"m not big on capital punishment, i don"t think it is very moral but i also don"t think iv DMT would be the answer, perhaps you create a bigger monster who is keeping their monstrocity under wraps from "the experts". Maybe it could be used to sort out peadophiles, not necessarily in a 1984 stylee but perhaps it could be beneficial in peeling back a few negative layers, especially if the paedo was open to change.

I would agree that execution isn't the kinder, gentler alternative. I'm not a fan of capital punishment, but there are certainly instances where I have a hard time building a compelling argument against.

I'm with Uncle Knucles on this, other than my opposition to capital punishment (costs 2x as much to execute as to imprison for life, is used in a racist manner, genetic info is starting to clear up a lot of cases, it does not act as a deterrent, etc.).

This whole idea strikes me as ridiculous. These kinds of "people" belong in high security incarceration for life. Oh, and I'm not concerned about kinder/gentler when treating heinous criminals, just that they get fair representation and a fair trial. Then put 'em in Pelican Bay and throw away the key.

I see this belief often, and find it upsetting. That is the belief that psychedelics have potential as weapons. Can't there be at least one thing that is not a weapon... Many call these compounds such as DMT, 'divine'... How about using DMT as a therapeutic tool and creating better systems in society to catch people before they go off and do harmful things to others? A large portion of mentally ill people end up in prisons, that's something that needs to change. I don't mean like "I get sad so I have depression", or "I can't pay attention in class I have ADD", I mean people writing on the walls with their feces claiming they are jesus.

If someone requested that their last meal be ayahuasca on death-row, that's another story. I would have to agree that should be acceptable.

*gag*

Alfredo pizza, margarita pizza, pepperoni pizza, a dozen fresh pecan chocolate-chip cookies and a 2L diet coke plz.

(btw, this topic is ridiculous)

Psychedelics may only help enlarge Empathy & guilty conscience if the user is seeking to become
more empathic & moral/social person. However if a psychopath uses Psychedelics, you cannot expect
them to suddenly, or even gradually develop a sense of Empathy & a guilty conscience.

Psychedelics may strengthen a person's connection to their sense of Empathy & their guilty conscience.
But Psychopaths have neither of these to begin with. What isn't there cannot grow either.

Like Shulgin said: Psychedelics ENABLE change, but they can't impose it.

Why the diet coke? If you are just about to cark it you might aswell have the full fat version.

that stuff will kill you, don't you know

That's very true. I've been trying so hard to change myself from within, and even with the ally of psychedelics, it is a monumental task.

I like this idea, even though I can see no way it would actually work.

I think the fear many of us share of violent criminals and violence in general stems from our inability to actually deal with violence when it presents itself.

The human being is and should be a dangerous creature, top of the food chain so to speak. We, in our present social structure seem to think that if we wrap ourselves in cotton we'll live forever.

I feel that if we as a society taught our children to meet danger and violence head-on, provided them with the tools and abilities to do such, the problem of what to do with violent criminal wouldn't be such an issue. Their careers of violence would be short lived.

My experience with psychedelics has shown me that aspects of my psyche that I ignore do not disappear, they fester and rear their ugly head at a later date. Our society has done this with violence.

LOL. Pepperoni pizza (maybe) 3 homemade chocolate chip cookies with walnuts and a 2L coke please - might as well go all out, as we would know the moment of death and things like healthy choices wouldn't matter any more, .

As ridiculous as it sounds to many, I personally believe that psychedelics are capable of healing certain individuals who would be considered very violent. Some time ago I saw a French documentary on Ayahuasca. (Can't remember the name of it, sorry I'll try to find a link) In this Documentary there was a brief interview with a man who claimed that he once worked for the cartel as a hired killer.
He mentioned as a grizzly detail that his job as a hired killer involved him routinely having to carry the heads of his victims around in duffle bags, he did this in order to prove that he had killed who ever it was he was contracted to kill at the time.

The man goes on to tell about the time he tried Ayahuasca, and he was shown what he had done, by the Ayahuasca, but not in an accusatory manor as he put it. So this same gentleman is a now well known priest at the Santo Daime church in Brazil and claims to of course be a changed man. The interview was what originally inspired me to think about this topic. I personally think it's interesting and it was not my intention to offend anyone with this thread.

The topic of treating prisoners with psychedelics is valid enough for MAPS to be interested in so I guess I wasn't expecting to get any hostile responses about this idea from anyone, I was only looking for a thoughtful discussion on the matter, my apologies if this topic does not meet the standard of this forum.



http://www.maps.org/news...ters/v04n4/04422con.html

A shot of heroin and a pint of Haagen Dazs.

Add a diet coke and you win.