-hello-

I brought this idea up in chat recently and it seemed to provoke some thoughtful responses so I decided to start a thread on the topic as I am curious to get some feedback on this line of thinking.

Basically what I am envisioning is some type of specialized form of ultra intensive psychedelic therapy as a substitute for the capitol punishments and life sentences that are currently used on the violent offenders in society.

The therapy would have to be set up in a rather ingenious way of course so as to ensure that the offender was fully rehabilitated from their violent states. Upon being rehabilitated by the treatment they would possibly have to be put on a very strict parole and possibly monitored by counselors and police for the remainder of their lives to ensure that the offenders do not relapse and fall back into their old ways.

What I imagine is a scenario where someone who is considered a hopelessly violent offender perhaps a serial killer or mass murderer would be undergo numerous psychedelic sessions involving both high and low dose treatments. The goal of the treatment ultimately would be to help offenders develop a functioning conscience and to feel genuine remorse.

The first session I imagine would involve 4 consecutive doses of I.V DMT one medium dose followed by 3 large doses each one about 1 hour apart. This is to make sure they get the point. (no pun intended)

The next session would perhaps involve a high dose of San Pedro Cactus extract in a tightly controlled environment guided by psychedelic/psychology professionals..

After the purging and when the offender is under the influence of the cactus maybe he could be made to see photos of his victims and then watch video taped testimony of his victims family.
Perhaps the offender could be forced to learn more about his victims and their own personal lives, hopes and dreams during the session.

The final session would involve a high dose of Ayahuasca or Ibogaine coupled with intensive guided treatment.

---

It's definitely something that would have to be worked out and tested over time to figure out the exact way to use DMT as a "capitol" treatment for violent offenders. One of the good things about psychedelic punishment is that I would imagine it would be way easier on the wrongly convicted offenders.

It also seems to me this treatment could be used on all types of violent offenders with varying degrees of intensity.

Obviously mainstream society would reject this idea as pure madness as if though I were suggesting that we reward criminal behavior by giving them drugs (event though DMT is not addictive). So there may be a insurmountable stigma that goes along with this idea that probably will prevent it's implementation anytime in the near future.


So I would like to hear any thoughts, opinions or otherwise hypothetical ideas on how these treatment s could work or why it won't work.

Thanks for taking the time to look this over


p.s
I also imagine it would be interesting if a murderer thinking he was about to be given a lethal injection was given DMT instead.
-The old switcheroo...might make a good short story eh??

I imagine that some individuals are past the point of any kind of salvation, regardless of what therapy or treatment.
What would happen for those individuals? Tripping and then back on the street?
How would this system work for re-offenders of this proposed system.
Having said that, I agree that prison is a very poor rehabilitation system.
I think of prison like having a messy room...rather than cleaning it up, you push all the trash into a corner as a way of dealing with the problem.
I think the only real true changes will be a global change of consciousness and a change to the ethics/morality of the public. This generally starts with education and learning from a young age.
There are many books on the plasticity of the mind, and how it is still somewhat plastic in later years, but more and more fixed during the adult years.
Unfortunately, it seems the world is becoming less concerned about morals/ethics and more concerned about $$ and greed, as such, I believe the prison problem will become worse, before it becomes better.
It's always darkest before the dawn.
It's crazy to think that United States has 5% of the world population and houses 25% of the prison population o_o, War on Drugs ftw lol

While this is an interesting concept, I don't know how effective it would actually be.

I think that the more likely thing is that you end up subjecting your subject to a number of seriously bad trips and possibly leave them psychologically scarred.
This seems to me like it doesn't so much step over the "cruel and unusual punishment" prohibition as it does leap over it on rocket boosters.

That said, I've had a comic book character I've played with, who's method of vigilante justice was to inject his victims with high doses of LSD and DMT.
Definitely kind of an anti-hero though, and definitely NOT the kind of publicity entheogens need right now.

Timothy Leary tested Psilocybin on prisoners in the 60's. He had a very high rehabilitation rate. Reading about their turn arounds is inspiring. I suggest looking it up.

The warden, when reviewing Leary's progress said,[paraphrased] "Tim it's real nice what you've done [walks him over to a sheet covered model and unveils model] but, we are building a new SUPER PRISON next year and we need the funding for this." Leary said, "With my system you won't need any prisons."......The program was let go after that remark.

Doubt that prison has rehabilitation in mind. hint hint $$$$$$$$

I think this method should be used on corporate criminals, sweatshop owners, plunderers of the environment.

I see no point, and a lot of risk, in trying to rehabilitate the truly pathologically violent. Some crimes should have no chance at redemption, and some people don't belong in our society, period. I know that may sound unenlightened but I have an extremely low tolerance for violence.

It is very interesting idea but I would upgrade your idea to all public representatives. To all members of the government, police, army, council atc. This way I believe we would be able to get rid of greedy money oriented, careless, disrespectful people in high positions.

If it is truly intended to be therapeutic then the idea is at least interesting. I doubt psychedelics alone are the solution but as an addition to therapy, sure. Some people do deserve a life sentence though, even if they are somehow 'cured'. Even if someone realizes the evil of their ways, their victims are still dead.

The idea of a government being allowed to use drugs as punishment though is terrifying, and not a precedent we should allow. Science fiction nightmare land...

Why not simply stop murdering people we dislike, instead of planing to torture them with psychoactive Substances?

Psychedelic Therapy for Prisoners? Why not - if they want it.

This^^

First it's just the violent criminals and later it's the people that simply don't agree with the system. While I like my psychedelics just as much as the next person, the idea of this kind of therapy sounds a lot like brain-washing to me. While it may not be initially, there's a small step from one to the other.

Think 1984.

That being said, a way to not-need-prisons at all anymore and jump right into the sci-fi nightmare land would be implanting violent offenders with a lab-on-a-chip thing that released constant doses of some kind of anti-psychotic to keept them docile. Or if it could monitor it in some way, released it only when they get excited... I'm glad we're not there yet.


Laws and punishment are still very arbitrary IMO - not only what is considered a crime but also who ends up in prison does not always reflect the real criminals. For example many politicians who rob their country of funds IMO should end up in jail or punished, but usually nothing happens to them and they keep the money and live on richly... Hence with the current situation - how do you judge who needs to be rehabilitated into society? Some people may think that a drug-offender needed to be rehabilitated as well. Or a political prisoner. I find the thought scary.

I agree fully with this ^^^

I must say that I definitely see how the system could be abused in a 1984 type of way. For this program to work we would definitely need an entirely different government. Our current government could not be trusted with this. For this to work all of society would need to be much more aware and enlightened than it currently is.

For this to work there would have to be a much greater awareness of what DMT is all about otherwise it would not be an effective way to discourage crime......

I think the idea that the offender could be given a choice whether they want to participate or not is probably a good one....


All and all I think this might be better fitted for a story, movie or novel then to be actually implemented in or current society.


Thanks to everyone who responded so far to this thread

Giving a deranged violent criminal a powerful psychedelic drug; what could go wrong?

"You can accept your death sentence or be injected with DMT - your choice!"

Is there a choice?

If somebody got iv dmt as punishment for killing a member of my family? I doubt i'd be very happy about it.

What about born psychopaths?

There are some people, who because of drawing the short straw in the genetic lottery, are born with hindered senses of empathy and a faulty moral compass. They are much more likely to be violent then neuro-typical people (although only a small fraction of them are violent in the end), but they really had no choice in the matter.

I look at psychopaths the same way I look at members of the LGBT community. They were made the way they were and never got a say in the matter. They cannot change it, as there is no 'cure' for psychopathy. Things that we consider basic human traits are just missing, they perceive human beings in a different way.

Should we punish them? Are they insane?

I ask this, because

DeMenTed:

I think you bring up a good point here. Allow me to clarify my position somewhat if I may....

In a tragic situation such as the one you mentioned I personally believe that forgiving the murderer is at some point an essential part of the healing process.

I know that if I was in such terrible position as to have one of my family members killed then I would of course desire vengeance or at the very least justice to be served.
Ultimately though, I know that I would have to forgive that person who committed the crime mainly for my own piece of mind and sanity.

Speaking for myself in a hypothetical scenario where one of my family members are murdered... I think it would make it easier for me to forgive the person if I could see some sort of proof that they have been fully rehabilitated and they displayed some type of genuine remorse. (How this could be done appropriately and adequately in order to satisfy all surviving victims and family members?? I'm not really sure.)

By contrast if the murderer of my family member were to simply be put to death in a state of having no remorse then it would be even more difficult for me to forgive them.

I think the argument that some people may be incurably violent is also a valid one, I suppose it is hard for me to imagine that there are those who cannot be helped no matter what but sadly it may be true in some cases.

I do believe though that severe lack of education, bad upbringing or being abused as a child is many times to blame for homicidal or pathalogical behavior and I think there is a chance that these issues could be treated successfully with intensive psychedelic therapy.

I thought this video was relevant to the topic

Wouldn't this be an incentive to murder?

i think an extraction might be simpler and more convenient.

plus you get more than just a couple doses....


also capitol punishment is already shown to be ineffective as a deterrent so.. no.. no this wouldn't

wow, um i'd rather have my ego killed and my heart and mind opened rather then be killed but violent criminals might not like facing their demons in the intense manner that dmt can deliver. It's a nice idea but I know the states will not come around to this idea for a long time. Mr. Leary and is fudged DET experiments kind of ruined that particular path so much so that it took near to 30 some years just for Strassman to get approval to just take vital signs while patients were injected with DMT. Perhaps somewhere else in the world there is a society that might embrace entheogens for healing their prisoners. People always find jesus in prison so I assume he must have a cell there or something... but the generation of divinity in the mind and heart of a cold hard sociopath that leads to a rehabilitation or even to the spark of remorse and eventual self forgiveness is a nice notion but one I don't think I will see come to pass. Even Iboga providers who are helping addicts are being persecuted. We have a Long time to go before this will ever happen IMO...

This was already done with prison inmates with bufotenine, they should have used N,N DMT, then again, its probably been done somewhere.

In any case, if it means taking a sociopath to face his demons through high dose DMT, that sounds like a more severe punishment then capitol punishment, in their POV.

In any case, i don't think releasing a sociopath on DMT to the public is a good idea