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Scientific racism, militarism, and the new atheists Options
 
fairbanks
#1 Posted : 4/4/2013 7:00:21 PM

"Our entire much-praised technological progress, and civilization generally, could be compared to an ax in the hand of a pathological criminal." - Albert Einstein


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http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/04/20134210413618256.html

Quote:
Scientific racism is a term seldom used today but which has a long and ignoble history in the modern world. In the late 18th century, the renowned scientist and philosopher Christoph Meiners published his famous treatise The Outline and History of Mankind. Central to his analysis was a qualitative comparison of peoples by race - a comparison which his own popularly-accepted findings claimed revealed a clear hierarchy.

Drawing in large part on the now-discredited science of Phrenology (the measurement of human skulls), Meiners described whites as being endowed with clear superiority to all races in both their intellectual as well as moral faculties.

About blacks, his scientific analysis was far less generous - finding them not only to be inferior to whites in every mental capacity but in fact "incapable of any mental feeling or emotion at all", as well as "unable to feel physical pain".

As influential as it was, Meiners' work was par for the course in the institutionalised science of racism of the age. Famous philosopher Voltaire - whose works were among the most significant of the French Enlightenment - wrote of his empirical research on those humans who possessed dark skin:

"They are not men, except in their stature, with the faculty of speech and thought at a degree far distant to ours. Such are the ones that I have seen and examined."

While they wore a veneer of disinterested scientific analysis in their conclusions, in the context of their times it can be seen that such proponents of scientific racism had the specific goal of legitimating certain policies. With regard to those of African descent, the intention of then-contemporary scientists was often - implicitly or explicitly - to report findings which could be used to justify the socio-political institutions of slavery and colonialism against African societies.

Institutional racism

Alongside routine characterisations of blacks in scientific analyses as naturally childish and in need of patronage from "superior races", were outright claims regarding the scientific necessity for slavery as a natural phenomenon. While the prominent American physician Josiah Nott wrote that "the negro achieves his greatest perfection, physical and moral, and also greatest longevity, in a state of slavery", others such as Samuel Cartwright diagnosed aversion to slavery among blacks as a full-fledged disease unto itself.


Calling the purported malady "drapetomania", Cartwright wrote that it was a legitimate mental defect which could be treated by visiting corporal punishment upon blacks - up to and including amputation.

We rightly recoil with horror today at what we know to be the false claims and methodologies of the pseudoscience of the past. The level of institutional racism masked under scientific study reached a particularly horrific apex at Paris' infamous "human zoo" - where peoples of different races lived their lives for both scientific observation as well as the enjoyment of the general public.

Viewed in proper context it can be seen that the crudest racism has often been cloaked in the guise of disinterested scientific inquiry. Those claiming this mantle have often felt licence to engage in overt bigotry using science as a smokescreen, and yet far from being a relic of history, many celebrity-scientists of today show startling parallels with their now-dishonoured predecessors.

In the present atmosphere, characterised by conflict with Muslim-majority nations, a new class of individuals have stepped in to give a veneer of scientific respectability to today's politically-useful bigotry.

At the forefront of this modern scientific racism have been those prominently known as the "new atheist" scientists and philosophers. While they attempt to couch their language in the terms of pure critique of religious thought, in practice they exhibit many of the same tendencies toward generalisation and ethno-racial condescension as did their predecessors - particularly in their descriptions of Muslims.

To be utterly clear, Islam itself does not denote a race, and Muslims themselves come from every racial and ethnic grouping in the world. However, in their ostensibly impartial critiques of "religion" - and through the impartation of ethno-cultural attributes onto members of a religious group - the most prominent new atheists slide with ease into the most virulent racism imaginable.

That this usefully dovetails with government policies promoting the military subjugation of Muslim-majority countries is telling with regard to what purpose these contemporary scientist-philosophers serve.

While one could cite Richard Dawkins' descriptions of "Islamic barbarians" and Christopher Hitchens' outright bloodlust towards Muslims - including lamentations of the ostensibly too-low death toll in the Battle of Fallujah and his satisfied account of cluster bombs tearing through the flesh of Iraqis - these have been widely discussed and are in any case not the most representative of this modern phenomena.

Indeed, the most illustrative demonstration of the new brand of scientific racism must be said to come from the popular author and neuroscientist Sam Harris. Among the most publicly visible of the new atheists, in the case of Muslims Harris has publicly stated his support for torture, pre-emptive nuclear weapons strikes, and the security profiling of not just Muslims themselves, but in his own words "anyone who looks like he or she could conceivably be Muslim".

Islam is not a race


Again, while Islam is not a race, those who are identified with Islam are the predominantly black and brown people who would be caught up in the charge of "looking Muslim" which Harris makes. Harris has also written in the past his belief that the "Muslim world" itself lacks the characteristic of honesty, and Muslims as a people "do not have a clue about what constitutes civil society".

His sweeping generalisations about a constructed civilisation encompassing over a billion people are coupled with fevered warnings - parallel with the most noxious race propaganda of the past - about the purported demographic threat posed by immigrant Muslim birthrates to Western civilisation.

Harris' pseudoscientific characterisations of Muslims dovetail nicely with his extreme right-wing views on military intervention in Muslim-majority countries. As he has said:

"It is time we admitted that we are not at war with terrorism. We are at war with Islam."

This belief in the need to fight open-ended war against Muslims has extended to both his steadfast support of the Iraq War, as well as to the conflict between Israel and Palestine which - ironically enough for one in his position as a scientist - he sees in strictly religious terms. About this issue he has written:

"Liberals ignore the fact that Muslims intentionally murder non-combatants, while we and the Israelis seek to avoid doing so. Muslims use human shields, and this accounts for much of the collateral damage we and the Israelis cause… there is no question that the Israelis now hold the moral high ground."

Citing "Muslims" as a solid monolith of violent evil - whilst neglecting to include the countless Muslims who have lost their lives peacefully protesting the occupation and ongoing ethnic cleansing of their homeland - Harris engages in a nuanced version of the same racism which his predecessors in scientific racism practiced in their discussion of the blanket characteristics of "Negroes".

Muslim-Western relations?


Indeed he argues in his book that the only suitable form of government for Muslim people is "benign dictatorship", an echo of the 19th century social theorist George Fitzhugh who argued in favour of slavery by saying:

"The Negro is but a grown up child, and must be governed as a child."

Finally, dismissing the possibility that Muslims may have legitimate objections to being subjects of torture, murder, and - as he's advocated - wholesale nuclear genocide, Harris helpfully states:

"The outrage that Muslims feel over US and British foreign policy is primarily the product of theological concerns."

A statement of deeper myopia and more emboldened ignorance would be hard to produce. However, what is nearly certain is that Harris' nightmares about, in his words "dangerous and depraved" (not to mention monolithically terrifying and foreign) Muslim hordes aided him in making it.

What Harris and those like him represent is the time-honoured tradition of weaponised racism in the guise of disinterested scientific observation. When Harris - as a scientist - claims to observe the innate dishonesty, violence and intellectual inferiority of Muslims, he gives his own scientific approval to the propagation of the most heinous violence against them as a people.

Scientific justification

Indeed he makes the case for this violence explicitly, putting him in class with the worst proponents of scientific racism of the 20th century - including those who helped provide scientific justification for the horrors of European fascism.

Far from being a hyperbolic characterisation of his views, Harris has stated that the correct policy with regard to Western Muslim populations is in fact that which is currently being pursued by contemporary fascist movements today. In Harris' view:

"The people who speak most sensibly about the threat that Islam poses to Europe are actually fascists."

Given the recent murders and threats to turn Muslim immigrants "into soap" by the most prominent of these fascist movements, this statement leads to understandably troubling questions about what Harris finds attractive and "sensible" about openly racist and genocidal far-right political movements.

The right to atheism - as well as the right to criticize Islam or any other religion as a system of belief - is as fundamental as the right of any religious adherent to practice their faith. Islam as an intellectual movement is not above scrutiny any more than any other religious tradition, and attempts to shut down legitimate debate using the charge of Islamophobia should be rejected.

However, what is being pursued today by individuals such as Harris and others under the guise of disinterested observation is something far more insidious. By resurrecting the worst excesses of scientific racism and its violent corollaries, Harris is heir to one of the most disreputable intellectual lineages in modern history.

Where once scientific racism was trotted out to justify the horrific institution of slavery, today it is produced to justify the wars of aggression, torture and extra-judicial killings of the 21st century. Scientists in the service of power, who once employed Phrenology to "prove" the racial inferiority of blacks, now enthusiastically push forward the belief that Muslims as a people lack basic humanity.

While those individuals who have provided the intellectual ammunition for the excesses of the present era will inevitably find themselves as dishonoured as their racist predecessors, in the present they should nonetheless be recognised as the dangerous ideologues which they are.

Just as it is incumbent upon Muslims to marginalise their own violent extremists, mainstream atheists must work to disavow those such as Harris who would tarnish their movement by associating it with a virulently racist, violent and exploitative worldview.
 

Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
Citta
#2 Posted : 4/4/2013 7:15:03 PM

Skepdick


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For balance Harris´ defense should be included (link below). I have read much of his books, looked at his public speeches and followed his blog, and I think this criticism is completely blown out of all proportion.

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/dear-fellow-liberal2
 
fairbanks
#3 Posted : 4/4/2013 7:49:03 PM

"Our entire much-praised technological progress, and civilization generally, could be compared to an ax in the hand of a pathological criminal." - Albert Einstein


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Fair enough, I had not seen Sam's response. After reading, I don't think it's much of a defense though, & actually furthers his questionable position. Harris says that b/c he criticizes western Islamic converts just as much, justifies his position on middle east islam? Really...? This doesn't take away his support for torture, pre-emptive nuclear weapons strikes, and the security profiling of not just Muslims themselves, but in his own words "anyone who looks like he or she could conceivably be Muslim". It seems like his whole defense is a diversion with him bringing up Mormonism, Christianity, western Islamic converts, I mean come on... Harris always says people take him out of context, but Glenn Greenwald in response put it best, "To be honest, I really don’t see how that full quote changes anything. You are indeed saying - for whatever reasons - that the fascists are the ones speaking most sensibly about Islam, which is all that column claimed."

couple quotes from Harris' defense:

on western islamic converts
"I am even more critical of them, because they weren’t brainwashed into the faith from birth."

So middle eastern islamic people are brainwashed? Great point Sam, great defense.

Harris also ridiculously rejects the term Islamophobia http://www.salon.com/201..._has_its_place_at_cpac/, while revealing his militarism:
"There is no such thing as “Islamophobia.” This is a term of propaganda designed to protect Islam from the forces of secularism by conflating all criticism of it with racism and xenophobia."

A term of propaganda designed to protect Islam from the forces of secularism? The term has been around since the beginning of the 20th century, not some recent media invention! He's supposed to be a scientist just critiquing religion, yet he can't help defending US middle eastern imperialism while he's at it.

I don't think Harris had much of a defense at all, it just furthered my opinion of him as a bigot.

____________________________________________

Some more material/quotes to consider:

"there are tens of millions of people in the Muslim world who are far scarier than Dick Cheney" - Sam Harris http://www.samharris.org...t/the-end-of-liberalism/

"I am one of the few ...who has argued ... that torture may be an ethical necessity in our war on terror" - Sam Harris
http://www.huffingtonpos...e-of-torture_b_8993.html

"We should profile Muslims, or anyone who looks like he or she could conceivably be Muslim" - Sam Harris
http://www.samharris.org.../in-defense-of-profiling

"the people who speak most sensibly about the threat that Islam poses to Europe are actually fascists." - Sam Harris
http://www.samharris.org.../the-end-of-liberalism/l

Glenn Greenwald on Harris: http://www.guardian.co.u...sam-harris-muslim-animus

Chris Hedges Interview on Harris/New Atheist Fundamentalism: http://goatmilkblog.com/...rview-with-chris-hedges/

Noam Chomsky on Hitchens/Harris:



 
fairbanks
#4 Posted : 4/4/2013 7:57:13 PM

"Our entire much-praised technological progress, and civilization generally, could be compared to an ax in the hand of a pathological criminal." - Albert Einstein


Posts: 299
Joined: 13-Jul-2012
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another related article:

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/30/dawkins_harris_hitchens_new_atheists_flirt_with_islamophobia/

Quote:
Richard Dawkins, the preppy septuagenarian and professional atheist whose work in the field of evolutionary biology informs his godless worldview, has always been a prickly fellow. The British scientist and former Oxford University professor has expended considerable ink and precious breath rationalizing away the possibility of cosmic forces and explaining in scientific terms why those who believe in a divine creator are, well, stupid.

It appears, however, that some of those believers are stupider than others. At least according to a recent series of tweets by Dawkins, who served up a hostile helping of snark this week aimed at followers of the Muslim faith. It’s a group that has come to occupy a special place in his line of fire — and in the minds of a growing club of no-God naysayers who have fast rebranded atheism into a popular, cerebral and more bellicose version of its former self.

The New Atheists, they are called, offer a departure from the theologically based arguments of the past, which claimed that science wasn’t all that important in disproving the existence of God. Instead, Dawkins and other public intellectuals like Sam Harris and the late Christopher Hitchens suffocate their opponents with scientific hypotheses, statistics and data about the physical universe — their weapons of choice in a battle to settle the scores in a debate that has raged since the days of Aristotle. They’re atheists with attitudes, as polemical as they are passionate, brash as they are brainy, and while they view anyone who does not share their unholier-than-thou worldview with skepticism and scorn, their cogitations on the creation of the universe have piqued the interest of even many believers. With that popularity, they’ve built lucrative empires. Dawkins and Harris are regulars in major publications like the New York Times and the Economist, and their books — “The Selfish Gene” and “The God Delusion” by Dawkins and “The End of Faith” and “Letter to a Christian Nation” by Harris — top bestseller lists and rake in eye-popping royalties.

The power of these New Atheists’ provocations is their ability to reach popular audiences and move their geeky discussions from lecture halls and libraries (Harris has a degree in philosophy from Stanford and a Ph.D in neuroscience from UCLA) to the sets of “The Daily Show” and “The Colbert Report,” where hipsters and yuppies alike digest their sardonic sound bites, repeating them to their online networks in 140 characters or less.

Though Dawkins, Harris and company have been around for years, their presence on the public scene used to be more muted. An atheist then was something you simply were. It wasn’t a full-time career. But in 2001 a man named Mohammed Atta and his Middle Eastern comrades decided to fly jetliners into the Twin Towers and everything changed. A man of strong Christian faith was in the White House, leading the battle against terrorism in often-religious language. Millions of Americans who had wandered off the path of faith returned to their churches in search of answers. Evangelical pastors were jolted to rock star–like status, waving their hands over crowds of thousands in basketball arenas that soon became “mega churches.” And a small number of Muslim extremists, intent on advancing bin Laden’s violent vision, turned their faith into a force of evil, striking out and killing innocent Western civilians at every opportunity.

The New Atheists had found their calling. The occasion was, for them, a vindication — proof that modernity, progress and reason were the winners in the post–Cold War era and that religion was simply man’s play toy, used to excuse the wicked and assuage fears of a fiery, heavenless afterlife as the punishment for such profane deeds.

Four days after the tragedy, Dawkins could barely contain his intellectual triumphalism. “Those people [the terrorists] were not mindless and they were certainly not cowards,” he wrote in the Guardian. “On the contrary, they had sufficiently effective minds braced with an insane courage, and it would pay us mightily to understand where that courage came from. It came from religion. Religion is also, of course, the underlying source of the divisiveness in the Middle East, which motivated the use of this deadly weapon in the first place.”

Until 9/11, Islam didn’t figure in the New Atheists’ attacks in a prominent way. As a phenomenon with its roots in Europe, atheism has traditionally been the archenemy of Christianity, though Jews and Judaism have also slipped into the mix. But emboldened by their newfound fervor in the wake of the terrorist attacks, the New Atheists joined a growing chorus of Muslim-haters, mixing their abhorrence of religion in general with a specific distaste for Islam (In 2009, Hitchens published a book called “God Is Not Great,” a direct smack at Muslims who commonly recite the Arabic refrain Allah Akbar, meaning “God is great”). Conversations about the practical impossibility of God’s existence and the science-based irrationality of an afterlife slid seamlessly into xenophobia over Muslim immigration or the practice of veiling. The New Atheists became the new Islamophobes, their invectives against Muslims resembling the rowdy, uneducated ramblings of backwoods racists rather than appraisals based on intellect, rationality and reason. “Islam, more than any other religion human beings have devised, has all the makings of a thoroughgoing cult of death,” writes Harris, whose nonprofit foundation Project Reason ironically aims to “erode the influence of bigotry in our world.”

For Harris, the ankle-biter version of the Rottweiler Dawkins, suicide bombers and terrorists are not aberrations. They are the norm. They have not distorted their faith by interpreting it wrongly. They have lived out their faith by understanding it rightly. “The idea that Islam is a ‘peaceful religion hijacked by extremists’ is a fantasy, and is now a particularly dangerous fantasy for Muslims to indulge,” he writes in “Letter to a Christian Nation.”

That may sound like the psychobabble of Pamela Geller. But Harris’s crude departure from scholarly decorum is at least peppered with references to the Quran, a book he cites time and again, before suggesting it be “flushed down the toilet without fear of violent reprisal.”

Dawkins, in a recent rant on Twitter, admitted that he had not ever read the Quran, but was sufficiently expert in the topic to denounce Islam as the main culprit of all the world’s evil: “Haven’t read Koran so couldn’t quote chapter and verse like I can for Bible. But [I] often say Islam [is the] greatest force for evil today.” How’s that for a scientific dose of proof that God does not exist?

A few days later, on March 25, there was this: “Of course you can have an opinion about Islam without having read the Qur’an. You don’t have to read “Mein Kampf” to have an opinion about Nazism.”

It’s an extraordinary feat for an Oxford scholar to admit that he hasn’t done the research to substantiate his belief, but what’s more extraordinary is that he continues to believe the unsupported claim. That backwards equation — insisting on a conclusion before even launching an initial investigation — defines the New Atheists’ approach to Islam. It’s a pompousness that only someone who believes they have proven, scientifically, the nonexistence of God can possess.

Some of Dawkins’ detractors say that he’s a fundamentalist. Noam Chomsky is one such critic. Chomsky has said that Harris, Dawkins and Hitchens are “religious fanatics” and that in their quest to bludgeon society with their beliefs about secularism, they have actually adopted the state religion — one that, though void of prayers and rituals, demands that its followers blindly support the whims of politicians. Dawkins rejects such characterizations. “The true scientist,” he writes, “however passionately he may ‘believe’, in evolution for example, knows exactly what would change his mind: evidence! The fundamentalist knows that nothing will.”

That’s topsy-turvy logic for a man who says he’s never read the Quran but seconds later hocks up gems like this from his Twitter account:

“Islam is comforting? Tell that to a woman, dressed in a bin bag [trash bag], her testimony worth half a man’s and needing 4 male witnesses to prove rape.”

Then there was this: “Next gem from BBC Idiot Zoo: ‘Some women feel protected by the niqab.’”

Dawkins’ quest to “liberate” Muslim women and smack them with a big ol’ heaping dose of George W. Bush freedom caused him to go berzerk over news that a University College of London debate, hosted by an Islamic group, offered a separate seating option for conservative, practicing Muslims. Without researching the facts, Dawkins assumed that gendered seating was compulsory, not voluntary, and quickly fired off this about the “gender apartheid” of the supposedly suppressed Muslims: “At UC London debate between a Muslim and Lawrence Krauss, males and females had to sit separately. Krauss threatened to leave.” And then this: “Sexual apartheid. Maybe these odious religious thugs will get their come-uppance?”

Of course, the fact that the Barclays Center in New York recently offered gender-separate seating options for Orthodox Jews during a recent concert by Israeli violinist Itzhak Perlman didn’t compute in Dawkins’ reasoning. Neither did the case of El Al Airlines, the flag carrier of Israel, when, in August of 2012, a stewardess forced a Florida woman to swap seats to accommodate the religious practice of a haredi Orthodox man. Even if Dawkins were aware of these episodes, he likely wouldn’t have made a fuss about them. They undermine the conclusion he has already reached, that is, that only Muslims are freedom-haters, gender-separating “thugs.”

Where exactly Dawkins gets his information about Islam is unclear (perhaps Fox News?). What is clear, though, is that his unique brand of secular fundamentalism cozies up next to that screeched out by bloggers on the pages of some of the Web’s most vicious anti-Muslim hate sites. In a recent comment he posted on his own Web site, Dawkins references a site called Islam Watch, placing him in eerily close proximity to the likes of one of the page’s founders, Ali Sina, an activist who describes himself as “probably the biggest anti-Islam person alive.” Sina is a board member for the hate group, Stop the Islamization of Nations, which was founded by anti-Muslim activists Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer and which has designated as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center.

Dawkins is also on record praising the far-right Dutch politician Geert Wilders, a man who says that he “hates Islam” and that Muslims who desire to remain in the Netherlands should “rip out half of the Koran” (Later, he blabbed that the Muslim holy book should be banned entirely). The peroxide-blonde leader of the Party of Freedom, who faced trial in 2009 for hate speech, produced an amateurish flick called “Fitna” the year before. The 17-minute film was chockablock with racist images such as Muhammad’s head attached to a ticking time bomb and juxtapositions of Muslims and Nazis. For Dawkins, it was pure bliss. “On the strength of ‘Fitna’ alone, I salute you as a man of courage who has the balls to stand up to a monstrous enemy,” he wrote.

When it comes to ripping pages out of books, Dawkins is a pro. His rhetoric on Muslims comes nearly verbatim from the playbook of the British Nationalist Party and other far right groups in the UK. BNP leader Nick Griffin once told a group in West Yorkshire that Islam was a “wicked and vicious faith” and that Asian Muslims were turning Old Blighty into a multiracial purgatory.

For his part, Dawkins spins wild conspiracy theories claiming that ordinary terms like “communities” and “multiculturalism” are actually ominous code words for “Muslims” and “Islam,” respectively. The English Defence League, a soccer hooligan street gang that has a history of threatening Muslims with violence and assaulting police officers, has made identical claims, as have leaders of Stop the Islamization of Europe (SIOE), a ragtag coterie of neo-Nazis whose hate franchise spans two continents: Stop the Islamization of America (SIOA), its American counterpart, is led by bloggers Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer. In July of 2011, Dawkins re-published a lengthy diatribe by former SIOE leader Stephen Gash on his website. Gash, too, has an aversion for scholarly decorum. He once unleashed a public temper tantrum during a debate on Islam at the esteemed Cambridge University Union Society, shouting and storming out of the auditorium when the invited speaker, a Muslim, rebutted his ideas before the audience.

Dawkins has no monopoly on intellectual flimsiness, though. As does the teacher so does the student. And Harris is every bit the Dawkins student. In “The End of Faith,” Harris maintains that Israel — the untouchable, can-do-no-evil love of so many Islamophobes — upholds the human rights of Palestinians to a high standard.

The Israelis have shown a degree of restraint in their use of violence that the Nazis never contemplated and that, more to the point, no Muslim society would contemplate today. Ask yourself, what are the chances that the Palestinians would show the same restraint in killing Jews if the Jews were a powerless minority living under their occupation and disposed to acts of suicidal terrorism? It would be no more likely than Muhammad’s flying to heaven on a winged horse.

It’s obviously impossible to prove such a farcical statement, but Harris, to his everlasting discredit, tries. His evidence? A statement made by attorney, Alan Dershowitz, one of America’s strongest (and loudest) supporters of the Israeli right wing.

How the New Atheists’ anti-Muslim hate advances their belief that God does not exist is not exactly clear. In this climate of increased anti-Muslim sentiment, it’s a convenient digression, though. They’ve shifted their base and instead of simply trying to convince people that God is a myth, they’ve embraced the monster narrative of the day. That’s not rational or enlightening or “free thinking” or even intelligent. That’s opportunism. If atheism writ large was a tough sell to skeptics, the “New Atheism,” Muslim-bashing atheism, must be like selling Bibles to believers. After all, those who are convinced that God exists, and would otherwise dismiss the Dawkins’ and Harris’s of the world as hell-bound kooks, are often some of the biggest Islamophobes. It’s symbiosis — and as a biologist, Dawkins should know a thing or two about that. Proving that a religion — any religion — is evil, though, is just as pointless and impossible an endeavor as trying to prove that God does or doesn’t exist. Neither has been accomplished yet. And neither will.
 
benzyme
#5 Posted : 4/4/2013 9:34:48 PM

analytical chemist

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scientific racism is an oxymoron, because racism is purely a subjective social construct.
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
 
fairbanks
#6 Posted : 4/4/2013 9:42:56 PM

"Our entire much-praised technological progress, and civilization generally, could be compared to an ax in the hand of a pathological criminal." - Albert Einstein


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benzyme wrote:
scientific racism is an oxymoron, because racism is purely a subjective social construct.


lol, so you're saying there is no subjectivity involved in science? the idealism of pure objectivity in science is a misconception...

modern scientific rationalism founded by Descartes came from a subjective experience of him dreaming an angel telling him that the conquest of nature will be found in measure and number.

I recommend reading:



"Comparing and contrasting the reality of subjectivity in the work of history's great scientists and the modern Bayesian approach to statistical analysis
Scientists and researchers are taught to analyze their data from an objective point of view, allowing the data to speak for themselves rather than assigning them meaning based on expectations or opinions. But scientists have never behaved fully objectively. Throughout history, some of our greatest scientific minds have relied on intuition, hunches, and personal beliefs to make sense of empirical data-and these subjective influences have often aided in humanity's greatest scientific achievements."
 
benzyme
#7 Posted : 4/4/2013 9:46:29 PM

analytical chemist

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I've said this countless times: science is a purely objective method. Businessmen and politicians
are the ones who warp data interpretation.

Have you ever had to write peer-reviewed papers, or review?
Subjectivity is scorned like plagiarism. You can cite all the philisophical
books and rants, there are a plethora... but unless you apply the method firsthand,
I'll take the criticism with a grain of salt.
there are a few science-haters on the board Rolling eyes
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
 
fairbanks
#8 Posted : 4/4/2013 9:55:48 PM

"Our entire much-praised technological progress, and civilization generally, could be compared to an ax in the hand of a pathological criminal." - Albert Einstein


Posts: 299
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benzyme wrote:
I've said this countless times: science is a purely objective method. Businessmen and politicians
are the ones who warp data interpretation.


all ideas are subjective conceptions, the data and information acquired to support them are the "objective" part. you're idealistic conception of a "purely objective" science as established by descartes came from his subjective dream (Descartes Angel). I'm sorry, there is no such thing as "purely objective" science. I agree that businessmen and politicians warp science, but just as well do scientists themselves. Surely, as a scientist benzyme, you wouldn't be that idealistic...The world aint that black-n-white as scientists are good guys and govt/business are bad.
 
benzyme
#9 Posted : 4/4/2013 10:03:09 PM

analytical chemist

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I've been doing this a long time, fairbanks.
I'm hardly idealistic.

initial observations may be subjective, but models
must be reproduced in a manner such that they are
observable by everyone, that is objectivity.

the way someone interprets the observation is subjective.

racism isn't scientific, it's completely sociological.
science shows that we have >98% identical DNA across
all races and ethnicities.
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
 
fairbanks
#10 Posted : 4/4/2013 10:09:33 PM

"Our entire much-praised technological progress, and civilization generally, could be compared to an ax in the hand of a pathological criminal." - Albert Einstein


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benzyme wrote:
initial observations may be subjective


so then tell me again, how is it "purely objective"?

Quote:
racism isn't scientific, it's completely sociological.


so then why have there been countless examples throughout history of scientists using their methods to come to racist conclusions? history tells us that, in fact, racism has been a very scientific matter.

 
benzyme
#11 Posted : 4/4/2013 10:15:41 PM

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fairbanks wrote:
benzyme wrote:
initial observations may be subjective


so then tell me again, how is it "purely objective"?

Quote:
racism isn't scientific, it's completely sociological.


so then why have there been countless examples throughout history of scientists using their methods to come to racist conclusions? for them, surely, racism was indeed a very scientific matter.



I just told you, the method is completely objective.
Reprodicible, observable by all... else, the alternative hypothesis
gets rejected. Probabilities, sir.

People put politics into everything, peer-review is a safeguard
against quack science. The method itself is pure, not necessarily
the intentions of the scientist(s).
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
 
Amygdala
#12 Posted : 4/4/2013 10:22:30 PM

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benzyme wrote:

initial observations may be subjective, but models
must be reproduced in a manner such that they are
observable by everyone, that is objectivity.

the way someone interprets the observation is subjective.



I have much respect for the scientific method, when practiced at its best, it is the closest approximation to objectivity that we have access to...

however I wouldn't state that any true 100% objectivity is possible in any of our endeavors. Aren't we ultimately limited by our nervous systems and our use of language?

The repeatability of an experiment, resulting in the same results from entirely different experimenters is probably the best ticket we have so far... but I would still consider it to not be complete objectivity.

Consider an analogy: several different although fundamentally the same observers are using the same type of glasses to view a movie, they are all able to see within the same visual spectrum, and they all see the same exact thing. They conclude that what they see is all that there is. If they had access to a wider spectrum of glasses, they would be able to see a much different picture.

Of course this is oversimplified, and Im sure it can be shot full of holes... but I think that the general idea rings true. We have human brains, and are capable only of what those brains are capable of. In the same sense that Shakespeare would be completely unknowable to a cockroach, I think the 'greater picture' is out of the reach of us so far. With the next jump in evolution, imagine what would be possible. Lots to look forward to.
“What goes on inside is just too fast and huge and all interconnected for words to do more than barely sketch the outlines of at most one tiny little part of it at any given instant.” - David Foster Wallace
 
fairbanks
#13 Posted : 4/4/2013 10:27:28 PM

"Our entire much-praised technological progress, and civilization generally, could be compared to an ax in the hand of a pathological criminal." - Albert Einstein


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Quote:
I just told you, the method is completely objective.


The first step of the scientific method is to "Ask a Question." Is this not a subjective activity? Is creating a hypothesis or conclusion, not a subjective activity? The scientific method is not completely objective....

Haven't you ever read Kuhn? All scientific methods of inquiry are based on human concepts, subjective tools and thought patterns. Scientific observation is knowledge of objects the way WE see them (subjective), not as they necessarily are (idealistic unobtainable objectivity).

& I just told you, twice, that the idealistic vision of a purely objective science, was originally conceived by Descartes and was a concept from his dreams, SUBJECTIVITY.
 
benzyme
#14 Posted : 4/4/2013 10:27:47 PM

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Of course there is no getting around the fact that an imdividual observation is a subjective one;
what I'm saying is that a scientific model goes through rigorous scrutiny, in a manner
such that it is observable by all, not just one, or it is rejected.
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
 
fairbanks
#15 Posted : 4/4/2013 10:29:29 PM

"Our entire much-praised technological progress, and civilization generally, could be compared to an ax in the hand of a pathological criminal." - Albert Einstein


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benzyme wrote:
Of course there is no getting around the fact that an imdividual observation is a subjective one;
what I'm saying is that a scientific model goes through rigorous scrutiny, in a manner
such that it is observable by all, not just one, or it is rejected.


so you're saying that multiple subjective perspectives (peer review) = objectivity? I think you're caught in a completely false misconception of science, benzyme.
 
benzyme
#16 Posted : 4/4/2013 10:31:25 PM

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ok, then define objectivity.
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
 
Amygdala
#17 Posted : 4/4/2013 10:33:51 PM

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benzyme wrote:
ok, then define objectivity.


ob·jec·tiv·i·ty [ob-jik-tiv-i-tee, -jek-] Show IPA
noun
1.
the state or quality of being objective: He tries to maintain objectivity in his judgment.
2.
intentness on objects external to the mind.
3.
external reality.

Smile
“What goes on inside is just too fast and huge and all interconnected for words to do more than barely sketch the outlines of at most one tiny little part of it at any given instant.” - David Foster Wallace
 
benzyme
#18 Posted : 4/4/2013 10:37:20 PM

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I noticed you had no counterpoint to the DNA sequence similarity, which would refute your historical "scientific" perspectives.
DNA sequencers aren't racist, they only show probabilities.
Big grin

multiple labs running validated machines which return similar results, that's not exactly
a subjective exercise
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
 
fairbanks
#19 Posted : 4/4/2013 10:37:40 PM

"Our entire much-praised technological progress, and civilization generally, could be compared to an ax in the hand of a pathological criminal." - Albert Einstein


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benzyme wrote:
ok, then define objectivity.


hey buddy, don't dodge my question. I'd like you to explain why you believe peer review = objectivity. if that is your definition, then I'd like you to elaborate before you ask me my view on "objectivity".

the way I see it, peer review, is just sending an idea further down the spiral of subjectivity. subjectivity + subjectivity does not = objectivity.
 
benzyme
#20 Posted : 4/4/2013 10:40:24 PM

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by your definition, it would be 1.
this is what is practiced where i work, anyway.

I see you embrace tautology.
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
 
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