Cool.
It works!

I think you kind of troll me a tiny bit, I don't mind though and you are civil.
That you don't get it, that you would think that i am trying to start a discussion for 'heated sake" shows me that you are among those I would like to screen out. You often claim I am saying or writing things that I am not, like :

Which isn't even worth dignifying with an answer because it is so glaringly inaccurate and presumptuous.

So no worries!
Thanks.

You're probably right. I'm just a bit upset, so my apologies. I would like to take my leave more amicably

Albert,

I honestly do not understand your motives... Like are you being serious? lol

What is the point of all your posts?

Ditto.

Albert is just in the mood to argue and spew mind noise.
Don't feed the trolls! lol

Nothing to see hear. Move along now.

Anyone who believes I am only trying to argue isn't someone who should be participating in the thread in the first place.

It isn't very fun to have discussions with people who don't understand what argument is and who conflate it with conflict. If you can't tolerate or participate in a discussion that involves a comparing, contrasting and testing ideas and perspectives using an argumentative method then this thread isn't the place for you.

I'm interested in very serious discussion about serious material here, I take spirituality seriously but also regard it scientifically and am concerned both with evidence and falsification. Many consider for example Yoga to be a science, evidenced by results. Basically a concern with Cause and Effect and Function, which is relative to the discussion, is involved here, and this matter to me at least.

It all depends on your goals, mine are personally progressive, I want to learn and progress in method, but know I am not chasing something like enlightenment or spiritual evolution. For me this involves comparisons of perspectives, not a mere sharing of them without contesting them, but sharing them and learning about them in a structured way as opposed to just show and tell POV dialogs, which is great for 12 step meetings and group therapy, it has it's place, but I had been hoping for something more productive and educational for me than that.

I find such discussions far more educational and meaningful than any time i have partaken of DMT.

albert i had a look at the description of the tao on wikipedia and it describes it as the primordial essence of the universe, and you say you feel it all the time and that noticing it is different. Is this not a similar statement as Amygdala saying we have a mystic experience all the time (and for me the trick is to be aware of it)?

It seems you are rubbing folk up with your critiques and what you are seeing as honest straight forward answers are being taken as slights on people"s core beliefs (unless i am mistaken). I personally dont have a problem with this. People disagree. Thats just the way of the world. I can see you are not debating for the sake of heatedness but are earnest in your opinions, which are interesting. But sometimes it is like watching a discussion with Dr spock when he is in a painfully logical mood (this is not meant as offence, i like Dr Spock very much!). I am just saying that cos i dont want to see your thread implode (but it may implode anyway!).
I find this thread interesting and i think the more opinions that are shared the better, i dont think people can claim absolutes in these matters.

I appreciate your sentiments.

When we make the sacred mundane, or the mundane sacred, we risk undermining our ability to invest and vest energy to things as sacred, in effect taking an aspect of spirituality potentially at least, for granted.

If we have mystical experience constantly, then what of those experiences that invariably to the individuals stand out as beyond the constant or ordinary? DMT being the primary example here insofar as in many cases the state of awe and appreciation in can impart is frequently interpreted as a spiritual experience, and perhaps in many ways it is, but nevertheless it is remarkably easy to both take such things for granted and to also have them distract people from the potential for other types of spiritual experiences. In some cases people become dependent upon things like DMT to have a spiritual experience, or at least what they feel and think is one.

As for Tao, what benefit and use does noticing it have?
I have written of how psychedelics affect the regions of the brain that deal with perception of self and other and how even in other mammals this goes away on them and can affect their behavior. The sense of oneness seems chemically induced in some cases and this can be done on purpose, I find it to be pleasant and even intoxicating in a way, but it also stands in stark contrast to other spiritual experiences that make use of the divisions as much as the unity.

I am outspoken against teleology in this thread, that is my perspective. A lot of people here disagree with me on this: humanity and the human experience is not the point of nature or the purpose and meaning of existence. Nature informs humanity, it is not that humanity informs nature. Or so I believe.

I like this discussion, and always appreciate different points of view. As I see this statement, the everyday isn't really mundane. I had an average day at work last night, full of frustrations and exhaustion. I also got to help a fellow human being recover from heart surgery. Whatever small comforts I may have provided this person, was a pretty cool glimpse of intimacy. I knew got to see a side of this geeezer that even his wife probably hasn't seen. A type of vulnerability we see in most patients. Yes, my night kinda sucked... tons of poop, near-code shenanigans, and back breaking work, but as I get ready to sleep it off and do it again, there was something kinda awesome that happened. These everyday mystical experiences are there for the taking, I just have to pay attention, and LOOK.

I certainly wont argue that being stuck in traffic is as mystical as an amazing changa session, however there is something completely amazing that happens every waking moment, we just become immune to it. I have been making a conscious effort to try to not be immune to it, and it has been paying off handsomely. Just think about it for a second, you are a completely undefinable amazing amalgam of cell factories producing/receiving this conscious moment. How lucky we are! Even a boring day stuck in traffic is f'n amazing compared to the void. Why is there something instead of nothing, which would be so much easier. F'd if I know, but the more I appreciate the ride, the more happy I am in my day to day life.

I am all about people having different viewpoints, and it is my belief that none of us is 'correct'... we just have different maps to view the infinite. I like my map the more positive and everyday mystical I have become. I love a DMT breakthrough as much as the next chap, but I also can fall madly in love with a piece of toast on a nice sunny morning. A hot bath after a grueling shift. These little things in life can be just as orgasmic as a nuclear psychedelic experience. IMHO.

Kudos to you and your esteemed association. If anything, I am an experiential Taoist, if I were to wear any "Taoist" label at all. I am equally a Buddhist, Parsi, Gnostic, Sufi, Yogi and more than anything else, a Joe Average with a symbiotic relationship with the Infinite Godhead inside of my conscious-awareness.

But I am not any affiliated with any isms or ists, I am a person who simply desires to be in tune with the living presence of the indwelling Spirit. To cultivate an awareness of spiritual Gnosis (for lack of a better term). I desire to bloom, as my limited understanding blossoms under the radiance of Divine Mind. We used o call it "Flower Power" when I was a younger person. Such a wonderful time. Open up and say hello to the light!

With this internal yearning, I seek to fuse my spirit-heart with this passing, momentary phenomenon we call existence. Uniting Heaven and Earth. Literal interpretations are NOT the eternal flow of the Tao. They are symbolic gestures of our kind to comprehend the incomprehensible. Just ask the honorable Lao Tzu or Chang Tzu, with or without any veneration offered in their memory.

People are free to venerate or conversely, not to venerate historical personages, artwork, temple complexes, literature or musical pieces. To each their own. And actually, I quoted from the Tao Te Ching. While I also am familiar with Hua Hu Ching, I didn't reference any statements from it's pages, as there is some reasonable controversy about it's specific authorship, given the loss of the original written form and it being orally passed down for generations of Taoist scholars.


I am myself, in awe of the splendor, glory and immensity of the Tao/God/Spirit. New born babies are yet to be taught to be oblivious to the presence of Spirit, so I agree with this sentiment. Your insight echoes Zen master Bankei Yōtaku's famous statement about Buddha-nature and the Unborn / Fu-shō, the "Original Nature" as unconditioned spiritual Reality.

But technically, as bodies and the physical aging process goes, we are not infants. We are wise to utilize intuition, direct intent and spiritual aspiration, to move fluidly within the current of this universal flow. So sure, having no expectation is ideal for the practitioner of mindfulness and even necessary for opening one's singular eye to the Inner Light. Seeing the Light is key to my stance. I don't just think about it or conceptualize it, or merely visualize it's presence, I SEE IT. In exalted states of mind, I merge within it's blinding perfection. And I immerse myself in it's Sacred effulgence, consciously, with intent and merge, willingly so.

I personally believe that for myself, there is no enlightenment without the direct vision of the Inner Light. And I feel "enlightenment" is our core, natural state, we only need to release the mirage. To unlearn the illusory mental constructs we have built. Such membranes block it's eternal presence from our awareness. So, there is an appearance of effort on our parts, absolutely, as we cultivate internal clarity and attunement to the reality behind the appearances.

But I do not declare it is so for all people, as we each have our own experiences. I believe that for myself, the Light of the Godhead is an opening, a portal into the emptiness of the Clear Void. It's not a tail to chase, like a kitten does, nor is it a necessarily a sequential process or a destination. It is for me, an invitation to journey within, although without really moving. It's more of a centering and a beatific pause in my personal drama. In so doing, I recognize my place in the Unified Field, and touch the Sacred fabric of the Divine. To freely participate with the interconnection of all things (seen and unseen).

I only know my own way, as you fine folks know yours. In my deeper center, I am but a witness to this changing play of energy and stasis, the forces of Yin-Yang, mysteriously swirling and spiraling, as it interplays within my mind and heart. I honestly do aspire to remain consciously aware of this effulgence, hidden within all things of this earthy plane. This is not making Spirit "mundane", as you state. I feel that it is making our perception more sensitive to the spiritual essence within all, which we collectivity accept rationally, as being of matter. This is not trivializing the Sacred at all. In my mind, it is praising it's obvious interrelationship within all aspects of itself, of which I am a small part.

Your inner peace may not be kindled from said loving bliss, granted, while mine is, frequently. Your assessment that those who follow the teachings of the Tao lack these experiences, is your own projection. It's delusional to believe your spin on things is the ultimate or more specifically, justifiable motivation to be so fierce and dismissive with other perspectives.


IYO, this mode of experience "goes against the Tao". IMO, bliss, love and euphoria are natural byproducts of being in harmony with life and living. Seeing traces of the magik. While not the aim of my practice, it is an unexpected benefit. Why should I deny that I experience them when I am experiencing harmony? Again, use whichever lens of perception suits you, yourself, and I will choose mine own. We are all dreaming... and I value moments of profound awakening. I am exuberant about celebrating such experiences. I am not addicted to trance-states nor addicted to refusing to acknowledge the presence of God and the miracle of life with every beat of my smiling heart and with every breath. Breathing, Spiritus, Spirit, Sight.. Oneness in action is a magnificent, whirling dance, accompanied by the roaring silence, the Song Celestial.

Like all of our dreams, they belong to us but assuredly, they are shaped by our egos. So, I suspect that this is more of a Lloydist declaration, not so much Taoist declaration (from what I can glean of it)... and not something I have found within the pages of the Tao Te Ching. I've only been reading translations since 1977, so admittedly, I may be wholly ignorant of it's true teachings. I may well be wrong in suspecting your ideas to be "Lloydist"... but you describe things in your own terms and like most of us, color the teaching with your own interpretations and impressions of the original meanings. We share this trait.

But I feel that it behooves us all not to tell other souls that they are in error because they see and reflect something you do not. And I do not say you err to do so, that would be hypocrisy. I just feel the need to remind you that reality is completely subjective and your style of "raising arguments" is not so enjoyable for me to participate in. Outside of your literal Taoist circle of friends, it may not bear edible fruit, unless one is equally combative.

If ten people look at the full moon, they all describe what they see in unique and different terms. No one is right or wrong, as we all view what we view because we are individuals with unique degrees of understanding of what we perceive. The common ground is where we meet,our need for communication. And one cannot say or imply through behavior, that one vantage point is superior or inferior. Chill out dude. Breathe. LOL

You strongly imply you have a greater understanding of Taoism, even though we all know that the Tao which can be debated on an website is not the eternal Tao. It is merely conceptual chatter. Fine for discussion, though. I feel that there is no for or against the Tao. It defies our grasp, so don't be so much of a know-it-all. I believe that we all get the insights that best facilitate our own internal cultivation. Your predilection for rough and tumble discussions is your cup of tea. I also deeply value the complete silence of any thought and the attunement to the emptiness of the Void. And I almost wish I had kept silent from the very beginning of this cyber-banter. But it started out with a lot of harmonious agreement and sincere, good will.


In my experience, it is not chasing anything, it is SEEING that it is here right now and allowing ourselves to know directly, that we are naught but Divine Being. There is no possibility of being "against the Tao". Seems like that is something the dichotomous mind chooses to quantify. Nor can any being existent apart from the Tao.

IMO nothing goes against the Tao. All is Brahman, there is no coming or going, the journey is the destination. You words and attitude imply you actually know what the Tao is... and what goes against or towards it's enigmatic nature, as an authority of sorts. This is a dream of yours, a state of mind you experience. In this way we are much alike.

What you snidely claim is chasing this vibe... is simple acknowledgement of what already is. Like catching a big wave and enthusiastically surfing with it, freely expressing a natural balance, clam center and intuitive harmony. To merge with the current of the force and direction of the wave. It's not chasing anything, really, it is flowing with the energy. Consciously, intentionally and serenely.

And in my experience of the universal current, it is a joyous realization to know one's unity with said current. But this doesn't mean we don't seek to cultivate a sensitivity to perceiving of the living essence. Nor is training unnecessary for our cultivation. Again, as Alan Watts said so beautifully, "It's like trying not to try." The cosmic oxymoron in motion.

I believe this is where your take of all of this stuff and mine are radically different. That's cool, if we all agreed wholly, we would just be parroting each other and that's not what you want here. You really seem enjoy debating and bantering. I propose the concept that acceptance is equally worthwhile and for some modicum agreement between alternate perceptions, there needs to be some kind of effort to meet harmoniously in a middle ground of sorts. It's called mutual respect, brother.

You may find that your method in communications may also weed me out of this contrary thread, as well? Your "conduct and thoughts" mirror much of this possibility, as well as my continued interest in finding common ground betwixt the friction raised by such diverse vantage points. Yada, yada, yada... ॐ

Be well, be clear, be centered and keep on being yourself.

"Chasing that happy vibe entails depression, it is imbalanced and why it is against Tao."

Could it be becasue that has been your experience?..chasing it I mean? If you have to chase something you dont really have it, you know?

Happiness is something a person has, they dont chase after it. When they chase after it is just becomes something they want..that is more like desire I guess. I am not sure I would claim it is depression necessarily.

I do think that often people chase one thing after the other and never settle in to one moment long enough to realize the peace and bliss they chase around. I think this is what in part drives the ego foreward and it fuels our own outward progression to some degree..but it doesnt necessarily get a person any closer to being content and happy.

There has to be some sort of balance between these two aspects otherwise one aspect becomes dominant and an imbalance will manifest.

i guess you were expecting more , perhaps i will be able to provide more ......just keep reading you may or may not appreciate it


the point of it is not to ask questions , the difference between the ignorant and the wise is that the wise have the answers , many must have seen the apple falling long before newton , yet Newton is celebrated to have discovered gravity , Newton had the answer to why the apple fell , Newton was simply enlightened


intelligence is to be obtained , thats what everyone is trying to get more of so perhaps they will be able to use it in living their lives , careers or whatever silly nonsense monkeys can come up with , i repeat intelligence is required as that is spiritual freedom , you can definitely not be free in anyway without any intelligence , intelligence is the reward of true spiritual activity


definitely , its really an illusion that we are working towards anything , the truth is either we are experiencing the awakening or we are not , just like either its day or night , not both at the same time , so yes we are really not working towards anything and are fooling ourselves


we are all just cosmic dust , having been blown into existence with the breath of God , to have thought ourselves to be anything more than dust is just what our monkey brains have been able to come up with


not what then ? the right question to ask is what now ?


it seems the confusion speaks itself ,


the right answer is we are really confused monkeys


the secret to getting the most out of life has nothing to do with attainment , reward , evolution, rituals , conduct , thought or any other sillyiness one can think of for that matter , the secret to getting the most out of life is here in this very moment , so be here in the moment


because we are fools


perhaps it will help people to ask less questions and find more answers


only one way to find out


the use of spiritual evolution is to understand the truth and not to use spiritual evolution


it does'nt make you ignorant , it only makes you knowledgeable and experienced on the subjects of eating sleeping and pooping ,


no need to be concerned atall with anything , than only the truth can be understood


this is the problem you have been there but not "here" , dont go there anymore always try to come here in the moment


great expectations huh


this is just the beginning of the understanding , with deeper work much more will be understood


you should have probabably made up something weirder to keep a nutjob like me out of this thread , this does'nt scare people like me atall , thanks for the heads up



edit : also i would like to add

I find the idea of interconnectedness to be more..well more something(though I lack the term) than simple the idea of oneness.

Within a system where each individual part relies on all of the other individual parts in order to maintain it's own homeostasis, the idea of oneness is bound to be expressed..

I would even argue that the experience of that connectedness is crucial for a being to come into full maturity within that system(otherwise they are like ignorant babies who end up destroying the system)..something many westerners likely never attain.

Is connectedness and oneness the same thing? You can probly argue both yes and no so I wont even touch that.

"What is the point of it? to experience oneness I mean... it all seems so hedonistic, to be motivated by ego and the attachment to the idea of reward and transcendence"

The problem is I could also say that about anything, including following the Tao for example. You cant simply generalize a whole group of people(in this case ones concerned with oneness) like this and expect the arguement to be taken seriously. The only kind of response that can really generate is sort of like, so what? It is a generalized statement and therefore is basically useless when you apply it to a specific context.

Oneness is just a word..and we have to use words in this context because this is all we have in this context. It is not different from the very essense of this thread..taking about this stuff is like mental masterbation in a sense because what we are talking about does not translate..

If it does, we are not talking about the same thing.

perhaps not everyone

Post #27 in this thread was you and you certainly did:



Please demonstrate where I assessed such. A quote will do fine.


If I told you that 4+5 was 16 and then made 9 with it and said see it is 16, then you would hopefully dismiss that perspective. My faith is not blind, is yours?

Living life out of balance perhaps. That is what I have noticed.


4+5=16, are you sure?




You don't come across as in harmony, or full of love or patience or peace. More like arrogant, self assured, intolerant of being questioned and fine with veiled insults and jabs. Like I wrote, from my observations I do claim that this oneness is worthless and that the evidence for this is found in those who claim it makes them better people, better than what? Other people? The trance state does not make them kinder, wiser, better or anything like that, it is what it is but calling it spiritual evolution seems unwise. It is just an ego trip where the state of awe makes people validate themselves as better people without having to worry about conduct.

So if your point is that we are both assholes, good job, but if your point was that you have attained to some level of spiritual evolution or awakening, I doubt this. The oneness doesn't really make anyone better, working on being and behaving a certain way does. I consider an act of kindness far more spiritual than any oneness. I don't consider oneness to be an achievement, benevolence, kindness, these things are certainly achievements to me but what you have claimed is spiritual awakening, no I don't actually believe that at all and part of the very reason is the conduct, tone and behavior of people like you claiming or implying to be evolved spiritual people, you are just mammals like the rest of us and I don't think you've obtained anything from oneness that makes you spiritually distinct or different than anyone else.


That is just it, reality isn't very subjective at all, only opinions are.
If you don't like your ideas challenged don't share them, as for mine, feel free to challenge them.
Again however where is the peace and love and harmony? Demonstrate it instead of just claim you have it.

Going to work now, I will read and respond to others later.
Peace!

Saying reality is subjective is an absolute statement, but one that is also self contradictory!

Albert you take your self way to serious.

You clam you like debate but this is a front for your argumentative nature.

Try respecting others and see if people respond back with respect.

Personally I see an almost a complete lack of spiritual understanding in you.
I see someone lashing out what they do not understand.

Your inner peace, or lack thereof is reflected in every outward action you take including your brazen rude posts.

If you seek true understanding you will find it
If you seek confrontation you will find it.

You will find what you seek.
Seek wisely.

But hey these words are probably just idle chatter to someone who seeks the division in humanity.
War on if you must but know this: Peace comes from unity and not division.

Peace

are you sure you're not talking about me

as far as my intelligence allows me to see i am the only asshole who posted really good **** , everyone else has been only kind and patient with you

its very silly and childish you would call out Rising Spirit like this who is a very humble , noble and respectful soul

you need to read my post again , if you haven't

also i think it would be a good idea to check your caffiene intake

Rising Spirit , apologies for the rude post by Albert

he seems to have no peace of mind

i am sure something is troubling him , i believe he seriously wants to get to the bottom of what all this spirituality and everything is ......perhaps this is what is troubling him

the age old pardox of wanting to know , and never knowing
searching for what is right infront of him

he's just out of balance , we need to give him time , he needs to give him some time , as he is a brother gone rogue with spirituality .......i am sure he'll come around

I agree

"You don't come across as in harmony, or full of love or patience or peace. More like arrogant, self assured, intolerant of being questioned and fine with veiled insults and jabs"



saying that about Rising Spirit, of all people, just makes zero sense to me after becoming familiar with his posting style over the years (and yes, even when reading the post your addressing..). I can honestly say that i think he is one of the most kind, loving, and wise people on the nexus. I think your heavily confusing things right now and just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Maybe i am playing devils advocate but didnt you say you were autistic Albert? If this is the case then Albert is just questioning and making his point in his own way.( i"m not an expert on autism but 2 of my exes have worked with autistic people and the symptons vary in intensity they told me). If you knew someone had tourettes wouldn"t you give them a break everytime they called you a w---ker?
And to be quite honest some of the points he brings up make sense to me, maybe i"m a bit autistic too.

http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/autism-symptoms

Edit Albert if you are not autistic and just trolling then you are a very naughty boy!