Amen.

I'm getting so sick of this arrogant 'we know what's best' hippy new-age BS that seems to increase in popularity by the day. Medical doctors spend years in school and training learning the cause and treatment of disease and this nonstop dangerous pseudoscience is nauseating and outright dangerous, to say the least.

I wish your friend the best, adorno, and send her love. But please, don't let uneducated hippy nonsense get in the way of serious medical advice. BTW, I am not saying meditation and increased nutrition awareness aren't beneficial -- but they should be used in combination with, not in replacement to, sound medical advice.

How about stop judging people a1pha and Art. You have no idea who I am only God knows that so maybe try not to judge ok ?

Everyone here wants the best for the lady. I pray for her and hope that she will fully recover as I believe all here DO.

By the way alpha not all doctors are good doctors as not all drivers are good drivers. I have been blessed to meed both tipes. Just because you have that title does not mean you know it all.

What the doctors are good at is not to treat cause but the symptoms mainly. That is mine experience with doctors. But also once when I was a little child the doctors saved my life witch I am grateful for.

I have moved some posts from this thread to this topic.

I would like to ask people to stop giving medical advice about things they do not have enough knowledge about. You do not know the clients full medical history, you did not do any tests on them, you do not have full knowledge about these cases and you certainly have no right to tell people what to do in serious situations like this when you have no clue what you are talking about.

I do not want laymen people on the DMT-Nexus to give serious medical advice. Reading a few articles on the internet and watching a few dubious youtube video's does not make you an expert.

So in this I fully support Art and a1pha in their endeavor to keep this forum sane.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

Whoa there, easy tiger. I never said not to follow the doctor's advice. I simply have a different point of view when it comes to this topic.

To me, it makes more sense to strengthen the body, mind and spirit when it has a disease, not weaken it. Just my opinion.

If your opinion involves advice for a serious illness then I don't want to see it on the DMT-Nexus.


The Traveler

I would like to remind all of you that bloodletting was a common practice and people who were against it were often called out for it in similar ways. Now before you become angry that I compare bloodletting to modern medicine, my point simply is that it is not unlikely some things we do these days to cure people are actually having adverse effects, be it in general or in certain scenarios. Many people, including those who know a lot about the subject, including many doctors admit this - chemotherapy being one of the main targets.

This is not to say people here are qualified to give medical advice. It's a very controversial topic which, in my opinion starts a lot of unwanted drama. But critics who say those with the "alternative" ideas are not knowledgeable on the subject may have a valid point in many cases, however at the same time they themselves often know only a marginal amount about the subject as well, especially when compared to those who have spent a vast amount of time learning about it.

My point is calling any voice that speaks out against modern health care or parts of it "hippy bs", often combined with a fierce denigrating attitude is a cop out and gross oversimplification of the situation. Many people would call any user on this forum a "hippy communist terrorist bla bla" simply for discussing psychedelics (or having certain different opinions), and I do not think it is beneficial to generate this attitude here, regardless of how much you may disagree with someone. It seems much more beneficial to me to agree that this is a highly complex topic, and that it will take something extremely substantial to convince each other, so it is better to move on to more productive discussions.

Apparently I have a follow on this thread, got the email notification of a new posting under it. Travelers original post was intended to prevent people from going off on wild tangents that could cause further harm, or at least that seemed to be the original intent. After reading replies from the Administrator and Moderators it seems a two edged sword.

It seems your judgement is impaired Traveler, Alpha and Art maybe attempting to keep the sanity of the thread but typically you don't sway people with such insults - which by your own words being demeaning and insulting is an acceptable way to moderate. Disappointing to say the least, but definitely not the first time I have seen it.

Not that I am a supporter of throwing "granola dust" at everything to fix it, nor do I find it intelligent of those who are zealots of a medical industry which the top concern is profit margin.

what are you talking about ? what insults ? all that was mentioned were facts ? whats so insulting about that ?

the advice given in these threads by Traveler , Art , A1pha are the most sane and beneficial to this person , all the responses in the thread are infact are bound by a common denominator , which is compassion , sanity and love

one has take all approaches to heal themselves , and at crucial times the western healthcare system cannot be ignored ,

one has to take it all in , no need to negate anything , use everything

Although I personally didn't feel insulted, perhaps FiorSirtheoir is referring to this:





Doesn't really reflect the board's Attitude. (especially for moderators)

I suppose that if you are in total agreement with the statements above it would not come across as insult, rather passion, perhaps righteous indignation.

I would agree that Western Medicine, as far as bodily trauma is concerned, is, bar none, the best. It is a fact that Chemo is poison, I have witnessed it. How many hundreds of billions of dollars a year does cancer treatment generate in revenue? There are viable alternatives to cancer treatment, but comparatively speaking are they as profitable; does it fit into the Western paradigm of exploitative capitalism? I think not.

Attempting to bar people; humans from expressing opinion based upon belief or experience is a questionable act. Though experience has a clearer voice than belief; or faith, but only by the lens which it is gazed upon.

The bottom line is choice - what does an individual choose?

Okay I'm a nurse, so I am in the medical profession and I was pre-med before I switched my major so I do have strong opinions on the feild of medicine.

Regardless I do want to clear some misconceptions. To the whole "Nor do I find is intellegent of those who are zealots of a medical industry which the top concern is profit margin".

I just want to go on the record saying that doctors do not go into medicine for the money.

If you want money go become a businessman. The doctors I work for first off are not surgeons (surgeons do tend to make really good money) They don't make that much money. They have medical malpractice insurance, some have student loans for expensive ass medical school, and they can only try to deal with that after they get done with residency, because medical residents, who are doctors, make shit money. It's sad really.

These doctors bust their ass studying constantly they get tested on their trade all of the time to make sure they are still safe to practice and they typically work in 60 hours a week plus. They have almost no free time. They come in one the weekends to work on charts and go from 8:30 in the morning to 9 at night for most of the weekdays. The doctors I know have given up their free time and their life to master the problems that ail the human body and make the world a better place. They bust their ass.

Sure there are bad doctors out there, but given the level of education that the feild of medicine has, that is a rare thing. Most bad doctors, such as the case with a lot of Doc-in-the-box types simply have a bad habit of throwing pills at patients too quickly without looking at the big bigger of the patient, and for the most part that doesn't cause too many problems.

The main issue that I hear that people have with doctors are that they are involved with "sick care" as oppossed to health promotion. And for the most part that does happen. But that's like people saying appliance repairmen are only there when your fridge breaks down. Health promotion with excercise and diet can improve people's lives dramatically, but a lot of doctors don't spend all of their time promoting it, though they do typically spend some time with advice and things like that. It's just not their primary focus, it can't be.

Doctors are focused on treating pathologies, it's what they do. For the most part they use medicine and regardless of people's notions of drugs such as chemo (which is dangerous in and of itself), it does save lives. In fact drugs for cancer are getting better, as many cancers used to be a death sentence, and now not so much. Also when it comes to psychiatric pathologies I understand peoples aversion to doping up someone instead of doing behavioral therapy, but in the case of certain types of people that is just not possible.

Regardless, my veiw is with the moderators. People with specific medical problems should get their advice from doctors first. Because doctors use this thing called the scientific method to help people, they have double blind studies. Long story short. They use EVIDENCE and they have a far far better understanding of the intricacies of the human body than a layperson. I'm a nurse I know anatomy very well, I know numerous pathologies and I'm well versed in pharmacology and my knowledge doesn't come close to that of a physician in this realm.

We should let the experts do what they do best.

Also when it comes to this notion of "alternative medicine" take solace in the fact that even doctors are trying alternative medicine, they just use science to see if it actually works, there are numerous studies on the various alternative medicice. And when it does work, they don't call it alternative medicine anymore . . . they just call it medicine.

And furthermore, jsut to add some food for thought regarding the evils of the profit motivated pharmacueital industry, I will say this, yes those companies have fucked up before. When they promoted Oxycotin as treatment for mild pain it led to increased rates of opiate addiction and subsequently heroin addiction. That did happen and it is a tragedy. But I will say that over all the industry has it in their best interest to improve people's lives. A good way to look at this is yes they are for profit, but what is the best way to maximize profit. Simple, make drugs with little to no side effects that treat common ailments. Because you can't make money if people don't take your drugs. So even if they are motivated by profit, they are still motiviated in the long run to do the right thing. When people don't take medication because of bad side effects they don't buy medication and thus the company can't make money. People opt out of taking cancer drugs and blood pressure drugs becasuse they can't stand the side effects. That's why there are huge R and D departments working to help make new drugs. Though they need money to fund the R and D departments. The problem that happens is largely because money is how we exchange resources, but that's the way society is now. Microscopes and lab equipment costs money. So while yes there is a problem with these industries for the most part people are good and people in these fields are working to make the world a better place. In fact they have.

So if I'm a zealot, so be it.

Peace Out.

Nicely said.

Psychelectric, allow me to clarify my point, it is not my intention to imply you are a zealot of the medical industry, if you think you are, well you know yourself better than I.

I think it would be advantageous to contemplate and draw a distinction between the practice of medicine and the medical industry; individual passion and corporate mentality. It would be naive of us to not consider the distinctions and the realities of what is, on both sides of the coin. Critical realism is a beautiful thing and a keystone of entheogens, or so it appears .

Edit: SpartanII hit the nail on the head.

There's a link in my signature "The Enemies of Reason" which addresses this exact point. To me, the real money hungry folk are those who practice alternative medicine. They sell you a product which is scientifically proven to be no more than the placebo effect. If these treatments had merit, like you said, they would be welcomed into mainstream medicine. Example: My Kaiser Permanente health plan now includes chiropractic work and acupuncture. It does not, however, cover chakra/crystal therapy.

I know a number of MDs personally and went to a university which focuses on medical training. I took the cheap road out with a humanities degree. But, what I remember most from those days was the pure dedication pre-meds had to practice good/sound medicine so they could eventually help others. They practically tortured themselves to get passing grades... not to mention the 300K+ debt incurred in the process. I have nothing but respect for them.

This is why it irks me when untrained people come here and suggest that western medicine is all a bunch of baloney and money-driven. "Just focus positive energy on your chakras and the healing vibrations of the Divine will cure your disease!" This is all fine and dandy if used simply for meditation but it is not medicine and could kill someone.

respect the experts , i say

its not medical doctors don't want patients to look into alternative therapies, nutrition and excercise , they want to even include that and western mediciine and everything else they can find that will help the patient , infact even psychological counseling is also promoted

also what Art and A1pha said , is not insulting atall , those who find offence in that are perhaps going to raise a whole lot of issues over a nail falling on the ground , its like sometimes all words have to be twisted by the ego

rather than understanding the meaning of the words , many are stuck to literal definitions that best fit the egostical psyche of the individual ,

remember sometimes its not what is said but how it is said that implies the meaning of a given set of words , and ontop on that if the ego would not twist the meaning into something that best fits its previous models of experience , then perhaps the clear meaning of words can be understood

its not easy because our perception is what colours everything , thus leading to a lot of misunderstandings , based on our ego's , we need to be more aware

dont be offended , don't be hurt , don't feel bad and no need to be insulted , don't let the ego play that game with you , accept what is

peace everyone ,

You are certainly welcome to contemplate whatever you like. You are even welcome to discuss and pontificate ad nauseum the evils of modern medicine as you perceive them (though this dead horse has already been quite thoroughly beaten).

What you cannot do is advise those here with actual medical issues to eschew logic, reason and doctor's orders in favor of whatever brand of hocus pocus that you personally subscribe to. If you do, you'll be posting no more.

It's really just that simple.

I think seperating the idea of "practice of medicine" and "corporate menatlity" is obfuscating your ability to see how the system and the implimentation of medicine works. Yes corporations can do bad things, such as I gave the example as to how the pharmacy industry spiked the rise in opiate and heroin addiction with their promotion of Oxycotin. I have studied for years how the industry works, both in my spare time and at school. And I work in the industry. There are many wrongs, but those wrongs should be addressed individually. Any notion of "down with the corporations" is just spewing rhetorical nonsense. You have to address the issues individually and not just spout phrases like "corporate menatlity", state the problem that is going on and then come up with solutions to address a specific problem.

Corporations can also do some good. Corporations can help spread goods far and wide across the planet to people who need them. Corporations have improved the lives of peole across the globe, provided cheaper goods. So if you really care to see both sides of the coin try to see this. We live in a better society today than we did hundreds of years ago

The problem that goes with this and the "greedy corporate" mentality is not the fault of the corporations at all. THe issue is logistics, the issue is money. It costs a lot of money to research cancer to study the AIDS virus. SO is it bad that they charge money for their products? They need money to fund research to build newer medicine to improve peoples lives. There is a reason these drugs cost money, but the more expensive drugs are newer drugs, there are plenty of generic medications out there for numerous ailments that are dirt cheap. Though that being said that there is a divide in society between the rich and the poor when it comes to medical treatment, but that has been the case every since we have had medicine. And I think it is a tragedy, that's why we have government healthcare programs such as Medicaid and things like that to compensate for such health disparities. The problem isn't the corporate mentality, they don't have a choice but to try to function in a society that uses money as a means to exchange resources.

Also I am a zealot, but my zeal is for logic and reason, esentially all I care about it the truth, as the truth will set us free. Most people don't have a good grasp on the medical system so they make assumptions, many of them false, as is the nature of assupmtions.

Either way I do think health education and promotion are the best thing we can do. Help people have healthy diets, help educate people on the need for excercise, and hopefully (possibly in the far far future after I'm dead), allow people to control their own medicine such as growing poppies to have natural codiene for pain and many of the other products out their.

Regardless of all of this even if we reamian 100% healthy with the perfect diet and everything, we are all going to die of something, even if it's our DNA giving out. My philosophy is to help allievate the suffering of this world, and I think the medical (even under the corporate model) is doing that. It's not perfect, but given our society and how we live today it's the best we got. We will evolve a better system of living I'm sure of it, but that takes time and tackling issues specifically.

Psychelectric, thanks for sharing your thoughts. It all makes sense.

This would also be a good time to bring up the late Mr. Steve Jobs. Steve was a psychonaut and a certified believer in magical thinking. And this approach worked well in terms of inventing things, motivating people, making things happen. But it was worthless in the face of his pancreatic cancer. Some believe that his insistence on "trying other things" (juice fast etc) for a year prior to going with Western style surgery/chemo is what ultimately cost him his life. So it's not at all unreasonable to lose patience with someone who is advising that kind of approach- we are talking about the difference between life and death. It's nontrivial, and many of the mods here have gone over this topic enough times to be a little impatient about it. There have even been calls for a facepalm icon.

Thank you for clarifying things for me, perhaps amending the Attitude Page should be considered to make clear the appropriate justifications and circumstances by which disregard of respectful communication is advocated by the Nexus administrators and moderators. Greater clarification would certainly help me avoid making presumptions or being presumed upon.

I definitely agree with you on that.


Traveler please can you make it clear to the mods that they also need to obey the Attitude page otherwise there is not point to have one.

Thank you