First question: Can CZ-74 be derived from psilocybin?

Second question: Would discussion of this process involve watched chemicals and break the Nexus rule on synthesis discussion?


**** I'm not asking to discuss the synthesis at all until the above 2 questions are answered and it's cool with the rules ****

Thanks

first question: nope

because psilocybin has two methyls attached to the terminal amine, not ethyls

second question: (refuted by the answer to the first).

Thank you kind sir.

i'll just mention that trying to alter that dimethyl-amine may cause unwanted changes to the overall molecule.

converting one end product to another is never easy nor practical.

Right on... was just reading about it and it sounded like a super-interesting molecule

Supposedly this molecule can be made by doping the substrate of psilocybin mushrooms with DET. Would be interesting to see if this was repeatable.

It would be very interesting, thanks for the info

Ah Doctor Jochen Gartz's experiment. It worked like a charm.
Shulgin mentioned it in TIHKAL & I found a PDF of Jochen Gartz's
Study Logs. It was discussed in another topic on the nexus before.

I've been dying to do this experiment, but allas I've no idea where
to obtain DET. Didn't know this chemical was called CZ-74. I remember
both Gartz as well as Shulgin referring to the Mushrooms grown on DET-
substrate as yielding 4-HO-DET & 4-PO-DET, instead of 4-HO-DMT(Psilocyn)
& 4-PO-DMT(Psilocybin) as found in "normal" magic mushrooms.

I've been dying to try this experiment for myself, but have no idea where
to obtain DET. I have some ideas as to similair experiments that
I could do instead:

-Grow mushrooms on a Perlite/Vermiculite substrate enriched with powdered
Yopo or Cebil seeds. Perhaps add some other nutrients to help the mushrooms
grow, as long as it is void of any Tryptamines or Tryptophan.
What would the mushrooms make of the 5-HO-DMT & 5-MeO-DMT content
of the seed-powder? Worth a try I'd say.

-Do exactly the same experiment, but instead of crushed Yopo/Cebil
seeds, substantial amounts of Melatonin (together with nutrients)
are added to the inorganic Vermiculite/Perlite Substrate.
Melatonin(N-acetyl-5-methoxytryptamine)..What would mushrooms make of that?

Similair experiments could be performed with Serotonin(5-hydroxytryptamine),
NMT, N-Methylserotonin(Norbufotenin) & 5-Bromo-DMT (5-bromo-N,N-dimethyltryptamine).

All of these Tryptamines can be found in easily accesable plants, accept perhaps
the last one (5-Bromo-DMT) which is only found in some sea sponges in very low quantities.

oh yeahh..
i used to have that gartz paper. too bad DET is scheduled, and rarer than
an honest politician.

Two questions on this topic:

1. What about substituting phalaris for mushrooms? Does this type of plant enzyme "hacking" only work with fungus? I understand we'd get nothing at the "magical" 4-position, but this only brings me to my second question.

2. I've mentioned this before, and I was especially curious to hear your thoughts about it Benzyme, because I think this is an everyday procedure for chemists, anyways, it is called the "Udenfriend Reaction" or the "Udenfriend System," and it is outlined in two parts: here and here. If you take a look at those articles, you'll see, it can hardly be called a "synth," I mean, your average MHRB extraction is far more dangerous. Basically, the reaction hydroxylates aromatic compounds using nothing more than some plant food (EDTA) and some Vitamin C, and at room temperature no less. In the paper they mention tryptamine, and apparently the product was hydroxylated at the 5 and 7 positions. I couldn't make it out, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that this same reaction can work on the 4 position as well. Besides this, it can hydroxylate other amino acids. So I was just curious, I don't know anything about it at all.

Regarding DET, depending on where you live (if it isn't scheduled) I think it can still be obtained legally from RC suppliers, whether on the WWW or on other networks.

On a similar note I wonder what the fungi might make with 1-ethyltryptamine found in some plant species...

4-HO,1-ethyltryptamine perhaps?

Is 1-ethyltryptamine also known as N-ethyltryptamine?
I couldn't find a wiki-page on 1-ethyryptamine and the
Wiki-page on N-ethyltryptamine has very little to say:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-Ethyltryptamine

I've never heard of 1-ethyltryptamine before; In what plant species
might this compound be found and in what percentages?


If you could obtain plant material that is significantly rich in 1-ethyltryptamine,
and devoid of other Tryptamine compounds(to exclude regular 4-HO-DMT & 4-PO-DMT production)
then you could dry it & pulverise it. The dry plant powder could then be mixed with Vermiculite & Perlite to make a substrate to grow Mushrooms on.

This seems more within reach of most Nexians than scoring some DET & sprinkling that over a mushroom substrate.

Don't get me wrong I know next to nothing about biochemistry. I do know that auxins, IAA, etc, are both common precursors in plant biochemical path-ways and are indole based. To actually insert the proper genes into a grass to have it produce diethyltryptamine however sounds like a serious task.

@adorno - This udenfreind reaction is news to me. Everyday procedure, certainly not. It's exceptional in regards to that it selectively hits the active benzylic sites on the indole nucleus without oxidizing the pyrrole. I assume it goes by way of a radical reaction with a Iron(II) complexed with EDTA hence the dissolved oxygen in the system. Unfortunately they make little to no mention of yield, and a small amount in a chemical sense could mean 10mg from 10g of substrate. The scalability is also highly questionable seeing as how they did it in 6mM with tryptamine(ascorbate salt likely) this is like ~0.2g, or something in 250mL of water. Though it does open up interesting (novel to me) ideas on selective hydroxylation. So it may not be a clean ticket to hydroxylated tryptamines but it is an interesting thing to be aware of.

As far as I know DET is a class 1 scheduled substance, also falling under the analogue act. I don't think any RC supplier will be distributing it anytime soon. We also don't like to discuss RC vending, or vending of any substance especially illicit ones, on this forum please keep that in mind.

@SKA - I am pretty confident 1-ethyl-tryptamine is found in mistletoe. The caveat to this is that the 1 position on the tryptamine model is the indolic nitrogen not the 3-ethyl-nitrogen which we all know and love. Shulgin in tihkal has made mention to I believe 1-propyl-tryptamine but said it had not been ingested. Would it be active, damned if I know, my guess would be no, at least not in the way we'd hope for. My reasoning behind this is solely on the pattern observed on the known active tryptamine hallucinogens, they all to my knowledge, have a 'naked' indole nitrogen.

Unfortunately, some compounds just aren't a cake-walk to obtain. We'd all ideally like to feed mushrooms some plant containing a compound and obtain an exotic fine chemical in high yield.

Thanks for responding InMotion.

I was sure I had more info on the Udenfriend, but even in that paper they give percentages (60%+) yielded as a factor of pH over thirty minutes. I'm assuming, then, that tryamine would have a yield similar to tryptamine.

I'm sorry, I think I caused confusion mentioning phalaris on this thread, however, I did not have CZ-74 or DET in mind while doing so, rather, I was simply asking if one might "hack" phalaris (using melatonin, substituted tryptamines, etc.) in the same way as with the mushroom "hack" being suggested here (i.e., with nothing more than plant food)?

For your benefit, InMotion, I've posted this before. You've probably already seen it, but in case you haven't, it lays out the enzyme kinetics of phalaris acquatica. Benzyme disagreed with me that those same enzymes, in vivo, might be able to work their magic on other amino acids, he was almost definitely correct, but even so, blind decarboxylase, and so on, aren't unheard of or even uncommon, nor do I think we could know /absolutely/ until we've tried the experiment.

Regarding RCs and DET, I didn't mean to suggest anything illegal, I was simply saying that if one lived in Freetown Christiania, then one could find this compound legally through the WWW or on some other network.

brilliant idea , i am getting some melatonin recently and was planning to do some work with brewers yeast ,

however the mushroom idea seems to spark more of a light in my head , SKA thank you

is it possible that something brilliant could come out of this ,

many side by side experiments could be conducted and results known what happens to the mushrooms when fed 5htp , l-trptophan , melatonin and other chemicals ( its kinda funny i am planning to feed mushrooms the supplements humans eat for themselves , perhaps the mushrooms will be healthy and reallly strong )

the results could be very interesting , how can one get these substances tested then , this could result in something totally new , this could be following the footsteps of the great ones

i know this is me going way far out however could mushrooms become so powerful they could be smoked directly for the effect , could it happen ?

edit : on second thoughts this will be a lot of work for me to grow mushrooms now , perhaps those who are already growing mushrooms can make something of this ,

This is actually an idea I had kicking around a few years back. It may be possible that the acetyl group on melatonin could be removed with-in the organism. If not deacetylation isn't difficult but it does require inert atmosphere. This would create 'mexamine' or 5-meo-tryptamine. IF it is accepted as substrate it could make 5-meo-4-ho-dmt? or maybe just 5-meo-dmt? or who knows. Hard to say but it would be interesting to see analysis of it.

when i search on google for Dr. Jochen Gartz

i came across an interesting page on shroomery http://www.shroomery.org/9040/Tryptamine-Cubensis

this was apparently written by PF

is this real for it states psilocin concentration went upto 3.3%

i know average folk cannot come close to trytamine hcl without much scrutiny and trouble however how about , trytophan , 5htp , melatonin , ethyltrytamine (mistletoe) or even perhaps adding harmalas to the mix ,

can mushrooms become stronger then they already are , i know its certainly not required however the quantity required to achieve psychadelic effects will be greatly reduced if this is possible

when i search for 5-meo-4-ho-dmt i get http://en.wikipedia.org/...thoxydimethyltryptamine



inmotion are you talking about 5-meo-4-ho-dmt or 4-HO-5-MeO-DMT , why cannot i find any info on it

in theory would the next batch of mushrooms growin from this be genetically different in anyway creating other chemicals or would they be creating psilocybin and psilocin only

also how does one go about adding melatonin to the substrate how many mg's are we talking about

the way those papers are written, measurements are in mM. (0.001 mol/L water)
you'd need to calculate, in grams, from the molecular mass of the compound to be added.
then factor for milligrams, and account for 100mL water, for substrate preparation
(BRF tek). the compound is dissolved in water, when preparing the substrate.

I was talking about 5-meo-4-ho-dmt, you can't find any information on it because it's likely never been created.

Jin it has been demonstrated that the Gartz paper is legitimate in regards to tryptamine doping of the substrate. So yes mushrooms can become stronger then they already are. As far as the diethyl derivative I'm not so sure that has been recreated, yet.

I've used MHRB and extracts of it in mushroom substrates before and it works to increase potency... seemed like a waste to me but it is nice to get decent effects from 1/2 a gram of cubensis.

I'd love to find some other precursors.