As many of you know, XML (Extensible Markup Language) is a schema for formally defining and describing domain knowledge. Here is a list of various markup languages for various domains:

http://en.wikipedia.org/..._of_XML_markup_languages

It seems to me that a formal study of psychedelic states, which seems to be underway in various scientific establishments, may benefit from the development of an Entheogenic Markup Language which would permit a more accurate description and organization of the varieties of experience.

I'm interested to hear any feedback on this.

eH

What a very interesting idea.

What kind of foundational structures are we looking at?

For instance, how do I express the following in code? -

"Dude I was liek totally trippin balls and liek the wallz melted into the floor and turned into yellow ducks, then I realised I was one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively and dissolved into an infinite ocean of love"



On a more serious note, there is a related project over at Longecity - http://www.longecity.org...aging-biomarkers-schema/

I think something like this will have to be developed from two opposing directions.
A kind of "Assembler" type language must be developed from the pharmacological interactions of entheogens.

Then on the other side we develop a high-level language describing the macroscopic effects of entheogens. With some time evolution these two languages begin to fuse into one and then a new world of exploration opens:

A world where we may invent new senses or means of processing senses to create incredible avenues of human consciousness never seen before in the history of mankind, rigorously reproducible at the mere click of a button and the tap of a keyboard.


Correctly executed we may see such a language being used to code for molecules that treat and cure diseases and many more applications beyond that.

After all, EML does exist in such and such a form already - DeoxyriboNucleic Acid

..isn't 'Entheogenic Markup Language' what can be experienced on high dose DMT?

i.e. information experienced as a 3-Dimensional (or more) Visual morphing language? (where,
as McKenna said, "meaning is beheld.." )

i suspect the entheogenic experience is beyond the limit of what can be efficiently communicated via syntactic language..

but i think you have an interesting idea EmptyHand..

perhaps this is what the symbolism of 'gods/goddesses', various spirits (in indigenous cultures), modern archetypes like various aliens are..like the symbolism of tarot cards..a subconscious mark-up language of symbolism..
.

Of course EML has existed for a long long time

http://miritextiles.blog...multi-tiered-cosmos.html

EML would need to be both human and machine readable, like any XML dialect. I don't think DNA or Shipibo art qualifies. Consult the list of examples if this isn't clear yet.

The idea is to produce a formal language that describes the SUBJECTIVE experience, to the extent that is possible.

eH

Both DNA and Shipibo would be machine readable...

Let's differentiate between the molecule DNA and the language it employs, which may be stored on a computer. Likewise for Shipibo. We can operate both of these in an abstract space.

Hi EmbraceTheVoid, may I politely ask that we not pursue the more speculative avenue concerning DNA and art? My original idea was concerned with a very concrete suggestion. XML dialects are VERY specific in form and I'd like the discussion to focus on the specifics.

As an example, below you will find an example of MathML, a dialect of XML to describe mathematical objects. This example is a simple description of the formula: ax^2 + bx + c

<math>
<apply>
<plus/>
<apply>
<times/>
<ci>a</ci>
<apply>
<power/>
<ci>x</ci>
<cn>2</cn>
</apply>
</apply>
<apply>
<times/>
<ci>b</ci>
<ci>x</ci>
</apply>
<ci>c</ci>
</apply>
</math>

I like this idea...but

I'd recommend ANYTHING but XML. It's grossly verbose, with damned near unreadable format.

it's also a pain to code against even with standard libraries. Since this is the age of the internet might I suggest something like:

use python Dictionaries to build structures;

MolProp = {
DMT = {
'name' : DMT,
'molweight' : 188.27,
'exoerience_type' : 'Heavy',
},
Psilocybin = {
'name' : Psilocybin,
'molweight' : 284.25,
'exoerience_type' : 'Heavy',
},
}


This can easily be accessed like:

MolProp['Psilocybin']['name']

> Psilocybin


This can also be very trivially converted to JSON which is a much better format for web developers to use IMHO

import simplejson as json
json.dumps(MolProp)


I really hate working with XML. Unless I Need to actually mark up something like a webpage I'd avoid this sorts of formats in favor of formats that are more human readable and can easily be exported to other formats...and yes I know there are xml libraries as well. I still despise XML.

Nice. Finally, a nitty-gritty response. I've had problems with XML and am fond of python dictionaries so this may be the way to go.


eH

Depending how far you want to go with this....

You could use Python/Django to build a simple (or as complex as you desire) database model.

This would give you a great storage repository combined with a web development framework...though you can use Django as a standalone ORM as well.

Peace

I think we already have this markup language. For example, look at the words we use for different drugs:
Pychedelic
Dissociative
Stimulant
Empathogen
etc.

A description of the experience is already in the names.

Perhaps I'm confused by what a markup language actually is, because language itself seems to be a "markup language" of sorts. For example, I can't describe what "red" looks like, but you know what I mean when I say it. We already use words as variables to simplify the description of incomprehensibly complex states. It is very hard to pin down a word describing certain perceptions common during psychedelic experiences, but we are already trying to do that in the Nexus Wiki, are we not? In essence, a DMT XML would need only consist of a list of words from the Wiki, from which the user must pick Tags that best describe the experience. For an entheogenic markup language, the user could pick Tag words from a list of words like, say, Webster's dictionary.

My understanding of conceptual XML is that it essentially makes use of name/value pairs. So all we need for an Entheogenic Markup Language is a list of attribute names and possible states of each attribute...

Suggested attributes="[list of states]"
actual plateau duration="[number of minutes]"
apparent plateau duration="[number of minutes]"
immersiveness="[number from 1 to 10]"
dimensionality="[integer]"
essence="chaotic","organic","euclidian" (or "gaseous","fluid","crystalline" ?)
primary emotion="euphoria","love","sensibility","grandeur","confusion","fear","hatred"
secondary emotion="euphoria","love","sensibility","grandeur","confusion","fear","hatred"

The problem with creating an Entheogenic Markup Language to quantify what is otherwise expressed in confusingly abstract and esoterically subjective paragraphical descriptions is that the psychedelic experience is indeed confusingly abstract and esoterically subjective. There's no getting around the fact that the insides of the psychedelic experience have never really been seen by human words.

So here's another suggested name/value pair:
ineffable="yes"

or how about:
Inexpressible using XML="yes"