step three...the acetone does hold the alkaloids..as well as a bunch of the seeds oils and fats and such..so you want to keep it..

the FASA is used to separate the alkaloids from the fats and oils and he has a jar that he pours a bunch of fumaric acid in..and then a bunch of acetone..the acetone will only hold so much..and then the rest settles on the bottom..so whenever SWIM needs some he just pours it out..and he pour in until he couldnt see any more clouds forming...he probably over did it..but it doesnt really matter..and the FASA is fumaric acid saturated acetone..so he is NOT just adding fumaric acid to the mix

step five..yes he is just adding acetone to the container that has the freebase bufotenine and sodium carbonate and fumaric carbonate(?) he pours it through a filter so that the stuff that wasnt absorbed wouldnt be in his bufotenine..this isnt SUPER important because SWIM is pretty sure the d-limonene boil separates that stuff anyway

its possible you could even skip the acetone pull there and just go straight to the d-limonene boil..but SWIM didnt want to risk it not working right

and in step 6...the thing is..SWIM found that the lower the amount of d-limonene that you boil will enable the bufotenine to fall out MUCH MUCH faster..if you super saturate the d-limonene..the bufo basically drops out completely in a matter of minutes after it cools..you can just do another boil after this to get any left overs..it doesnt take that long with such a small amount of liquid to boil..

and it probably would be a good idea to boil it twice to get any other crud out..he may try that and see how much purer it gets

Further clarification needed.

SWIY takes his container 600ml of filtered Acetone, and keeps adding FASA until clouds stop forming in the container. SWIY states that 3g of Bufotenine fumarate and junk "drop out" - does that mean that the liquid is poured out, and the solids which remain are the fumarate and some other undesirables, which you then freebase?

Just making sure. SWIM has never worked with any FASA teks before.

yes you drop out the bufotenine fumarate..and then pour off the acetone..it will probably be yellow..make sure you wait until all the bufo drops out though and you will be left with solids at the bottom of your glass

this is what Swim is getting from smoking calcium hydroxide and ace tek...
these effects are still not desirable...
the effects one gets from insulflating cebil with calcium hydroxide are unbeleivable... a cross between DMT and psilocybin, full one visionary state, full on crystaline colorfull kalidoscpoic at first moving into visions. most powerful entheogen swim knows of...
if SWIY can get that with smoking that would be wonderful.
So far the only reports that seem to get those sort of effects is 69rons reports... his FOAF is reportedly sensative to tryptamines from what ive read... So im not sure if thats to be considered...
but so far SWIMs not hearing of any subjective effects that match those reported by ron...

the effects your getting are the very begining effects one gets from snuffing four seeds mixed with lime if the snuff is old and has been laying out for a long time... or not enough lime stone paste has been added.

agreed..its interesting whats going on here..whats happening to the bufotenine? is it the smoking technique people are using? is it dosage?

4 seeds is about half a gram..and SWIM has been getting just about 2% yields so thats saying there is only 10mg of bufotenine...varying though because all the seeds are different..but 10mg of snuffed bufotenine doesnt seem like it should do the trick....it would have to be around 10% percent of the seeds for a nice solid dose so what is going on here..

SWIM may not be smoking enough...perhaps the bufotenine is turning into something else in the process?? if it is..what could it be? perhaps he is burning the bufotenine..instead of vaporizing it? there are so many little things that could be happening..but i havent read any other reports of getting bufotenine to produce those kinds of visions from these teks..and im wondering whats happening here

69ron is there any advice or ideas you may have?

has anybody tried snuffing some seeds they used to extract with?

SWIM would have to say though..that when he smoked 10mg the visual effects were very strong..

When you make snuff, it’s possible that the bufotenine is converting to dehydrobufotenine. Snuff is often made with lots of calcium hydroxide (lime).

As a test SWIM once mixed pure bufotenine crystals with calcium hydroxide and water for 24 hours at pH 12.4. He then filtered off the calcium hydroxide and evaporated the water. All the calcium hydroxide was recovered. What was left was a soapy tasting material that weighed slightly less than the original bufotenine did. He tried smoking it. It could not be smoked for effects. He believes that it converted to dehydrobufotenine as Alexander Shulgin suggests, which would explain why it weighs slightly less.

Bufotenine (C12H16N2O) has two more hydrogen atoms than dehydrobufotenine (C12H14N2O) does.

Dehydrobufotenine has an XLogP3 of 2.3.

Bufotenine has an XLogP3 of 1.2. That means it’s more water soluble than dehydrobufotenine and may indicate that dehydrobufotenine crosses the blood brain barrier better and might be more psychedelic. But no one knows. The product made above was not smokeable, but SWIM never tried snorting it. It might be snortable and very active.


SWIM never used FASA for bufotenine. He usually does an A/B extraction using citric acid, DCM, and sodium carbonate, and then purifies the bufotenine by boiling in xylene (he’ll be using d-limonene from now on though). So maybe his results are different from those of Jorkest. But I doubt it.

I think it’s smoking technique. SWIM uses a test tube vaporizer and does not use a pipe so he inhales nearly all the vapor with virtually none wasted. A test tube vaporizer has virtually no way for the vapor to escape so unless you inhale it, it stays as a cloud of vapor in the test tube. Also, the boiling point of bufotenine is 320 C (608 F) so it needs much more heat than DMT does or it will not vaporize.

One thing you need to remember, bufotenine has mild side effects similar to LSA like vasoconstriction, but unlike LSA they don’t really increase that much as the dose increases. For example, 10 mg of vaporized bufotenine for SWIM has the same very mild side effects as 30 mg of vaporized bufotenine does.

A 30 mg dose of bufotenine is extremely visual producing lots of visions. At that dose, I think almost anyone, even those most resistant to the effects of psychedelic tryptamines will experience strong visions. SWIM can get visions at 10 mg, however SWIM is very sensitive to the effects of pretty much all psychedelics.

I doubt much is being burnt. I think it’s more likely that a lot of the vapor is not getting inhaled completely. Inhale, and hold it for about 20 seconds. SWIM uses a test tube vaporizer, and gets the best results from that. He uses a candle flame for the heat placed under the test tube just close enough to boil the bufotenine in about 15-20 seconds. He sees no burnt crap left behind after inhaling all the vapor if the bufotenine is pure.

1 average seed weighs about 1/6 of a gram (about 166 mg). At the average 2% bufotenine one seed would contain about 3.3 mg of bufotenine. For decent effects from average seeds prepared as snuff you’d need about 6-24 seeds (about 1-4 grams) containing approximately 20-80 mg of bufotenine. Some shamans use as much as 8 grams of seeds. For SWIM when he’s made snuff he’s always used about 2-3 grams and got excellent results. The figures all add up. SWIM did not notice much loss in bufotenine when extracting from the seeds. Yields are normally around 2% bufotenine from the seeds. Sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less.

The experience from snorting pure bufotenine is different from smoking it. It's more ayahuasca or mushroom like when snorted. It’s also more mentally psychedelic.

maybe SWIM will try doing another extraction using citric acid saturated acetone instead of fumaric acid..but the effects were nice

How long is needed for all bufotenine citrate to precipitate?
SWIM have done point 1., and just a little bit some white cristalic "bubbles" started to fall down and floating around.

ok...
theres a possibility that the bufo in the lime stone snuff is just not the same as whats been extracted... it may also be so that what is snuffable is not smokable, and it may also be possible that these effects are unique to SWIYs biochemistry and one cannot expect the same effects... it may also be possible.. that its smoking method, and it may also be possible that what Jorkests FOAF has been smoking is the same wonderful substance that SWIYs been smoking... but it needs to be smoked the same way your smoking it and possibly at a much higher dose...

theres a lot of variables... if we list them systemically and go through them systemically chance are the enigma will be solved...
SWIM has soaked seeds in ammonia and smoked them... SWIM has smoked seeds that have been converted to snuff... the seeds that where converted to snuff have been from the same batch. SWIM was sent many many seeds to work with from argentina they are var. cebil. the seeds in snuff form when enough lime has been added IS INSANELY VISUAL AND PSYCHEDELIC... but smoking them as a snuff... mmm nope... could be the method of getting it all into the body at once.. i dont know...

SO heres somethings that swim has noticed about snuff...
if not enough lime stone is added and not enough snuff is snuffed 4 seeds worth... your not goign to get break through... if one lets the snuff sit for two long in the lime stone... a few days... say about four max... you get a degradation of visionary material... ie no break through... if one snuffs it with wet lime stone paste mixed in... immediately after mixing... four seeds is a fucking over dose... the lime stone paste burns your nose horribly... but the experience is the most powerful...
SWims observations over the years have been that wet lime stone paste burns... so let it dry over night or add it to the frying pan to dry it out a little... but mixing it with wet lime vs dry makes it more potent and visionary. a pea sized amount of lime stone paste is added to the four seeds for ultimate potency in visionary effects...

Now there is a scale of effects...

STAGE 1 -burning pressure... in head and shoulders and rest of body which subsides and oen is left with just feeling wyrd... just like smoking seeds... this is the lowest grade of effects... if your getting these results you have to add more lime stone paste, or it has been left out to long... or one has not snuffed four seeds or one has burnt them on the frying pan popping them.

STAGE 2 -burning pressure with slight closed eye visuals, wirey worms like visuals... this is just a fraction of a step up in effects... but seems to be the highest effects people are getting from smoking extracts besides 69rons FOAF...

STAGE 3 -burning pressure... then slight color patterns that quickly fade into a more dream like black and white dream like visionary state. the difference between CEV and visions is clear i hope. no patterns at this point... just images... people places, a black and white dream... this is followed by euphoria after the intitail effects of the burning onset wears off... the visions subside and one is left with a positive after glow for 45 minutes to two hours...

STAGE 4 - burning pressure... then full one break through into colorful CEV which remain the same with open eye... this can occur in day light as well as in darkness with the OEVs... crystalline swirling vortexes of kaleidoscopic energy... forms take shape in this back ground pattern... images... spirits, sources of information... then full on color visions emerge that one can interact with. one is filled with euphoria and is very clear headed... visions subside but psychic intoxication and euphoria last for a considerable period of time there after again 45 min - 2 hours after insulflation.

-baking soda or to weak of a base will only give stage 2 or stage 3 effects... with slower ramp up...
-lime stone paste is the only thing SWIM has worked with that actually gave stage four horrible stage 5 which is just over dose... and i didnt explain that...

-wet lime stone helps with getting effects to stage 4 and 5 but must be taken quicly or it will oxidize leaving the snuff looking black and burnt. the wet limestone must be dryed or ones nasal passages will get fried...


SWIM suspects that paying attention to the pharmakodynamics of the snuff will give better results in the extraction quest...
it maybe... that 69rons FOAF is just a super sensitive dude... i think there are folks out there that get that effect from smoking ammonia soaked seeds ive heard... so maybe its just personal chemistry... does 69rons FOAF have any other FOAFS that can be used as gunie pigs to test and see if this is the case?

it may also be desirable to just make some extract thats JUST for snuffing.
Jorkests FOAF coudl try snuffing his extraction and see how that works... if one can get a stage four effect from an insulflated extract with out the burn of the lime stone then I think we have a totally suscessfull extract. it may be that smoking it only works for some folks that are sensative... but snuffing can work for every one.

SWIM has led ceremonial circles with the same cebil for nearly ten years. SWIM was the First to do a trip report on erowid explaining how to use lime stone paste, and SWIM supplied the first ethnobotanical company with the first lime stone paste... SWIM wasthe first to reintroduce cebil snuffing to bolivian shamans, who know work with it in ceremonies instead of just putting them in despachos for burnt ceremonies...
SWIM has Witnessed and documented countless reports from the same batch of seeds all producing the same effects with swims method of preparation.
SWIMS old shamanic teacher in bolivia reports that the coca leaf lime stone works better because it is less caustic on the sinuses... swim feels that the coca leaf lime stone only gets the visionary state to a state between stages 3-4.

hope yall can use some of this info... thought it might help alittle...

that was wonderful actually...SWIM has some ideas that may help

SWIM can take the D-limonene tek and modify it using calcium hydroxide instead of sodium carbonate

he can also try first freebasing with sodium carbonate and then on the second freebase use calcium hydroxide

perhaps calcium bufotenate is forming..who knows

another thing that can be tried..is instead of using fumaric acid..citric acid could be used instead

but SWIM felt that he was right about Stage 3 in intensity..but he also smoked his extract over the course of 10 minutes..or so..but the overall psychedelic effects were extremely nice..and perhaps with a little more use..he can put more attention into the closed eye visuals..

all that info was very useful LLB..and we can use that to figure out whats happening here..

perhaps 69ron's FOAF's test tube vaporizer is the way to do it..

69ron what do SWIY use as a stopper? and how far does the sucking tube go down into the test tube..it would be nice to see exactly how SWIY is doing it

SWIM uses a large test tube with a side arm for adding a vacuum to it much like a filter flask has. That's where he attaches his vinyl tubing for inhaling the vapor.

After loading the test tube with the freebase bufotenine, he caps the test tube with a single hole rubber stopper. The rubber stopper has a glass tube inserted through the hole. The glass tube extends from the top on the rubber stopper down into the test tube about 1 inch above the bottom of the glass test tube. This is for air to enter the test tube when you inhale the vapor from the vinyl tubing.

Swim attaches with test tube to a lab stand and tints the test tube about 45 degrees with the bottom downward. He places a lit candle under it near the test tube bottom where the bufotenine is and the adjusts the tilt so that the flame doesn’t touch the test tube and is producing enough heat to melt the bufotenine in about 5 seconds and vaporize it in about 20 seconds.

As soon as the vapor starts forming a cloud filling about half of the test tube he moves the candle away from it and starts inhaling the vapor.



SWIM has tried snorting freebase bufotenine and the effects SWIM gets from it are virtually identical to the snuff made with calcium hydroxide just as stated above by LLB in his “STAGE 4”. So I don’t think there’s really anything special about using calcium hydroxide.

If you read the reports from Jonathan Ott’s freebase bufotenine tests he had a snuff expert test the effects of snorted freebase bufotenine and the expert confirm that the effects were nearly identical to those of authentic snuff.

SWIM already did those tests. Extracting using calcium hydroxide instead of sodium carbonate or ammonia makes no difference unless you let your material stand in it for too long at too high of a pH, and then something like dehydrobufotenine will form which is not smokeable (SWIM tried it) and maybe even not active by snorting.

If you look at LLB’s posts


He’s noticed the same thing SWIM has noticed with pure bufotenine.

Notice that he says if you let the snuff sit for too long in the wet lime stone, the calcium starts to destroy the actives. This is likely because dehydrobufotenine is forming. In SWIM’s tests bufotenine exposed to calcium hydroxide (lime) for 24 hours degrades into something else (probably dehydrobufotenine) that is not active by smoking.

The reason a weak base doesn’t work well in snuff is because the pKa of bufotenine is too high to be fully freebased using a weak base like baking soda, however sodium carbonate is plenty strong enough to freebase all of it but not strong enough to degrade it like calcium hydroxide can if exposed to it for to long in a wet state.

For snuff though, calcium hydroxide is the best because it helps the alkaloids absorb through the nose. Calcium carbonate might also work for this purpose, but SWIM never tired it. It’s very similar to calcium hydroxide, but a weaker base, but stronger than baking soda. It’s not strong enough to degrade bufotenine, but strong enough to freebase a good amount of it.

The pKa of bufotenine is 9.67, so you need a pH of 9.67 to freebase 50% of it. A pH of 10.67 will freebase 90% of it. That’s good enough for snuff. Calcium carbonate can bring the snuff to pH 9.8, so it can freebase more than 50% of the bufotenine. That should work pretty good. Baking soda can bring the snuff to only pH 8.3 which would freebase less than 10% of the bufotenine, so it’s not very effective at all. Sodium carbonate and ammonia can each freebase nearly 99% of it. Calcium hydroxide and sodium hydroxide can freebase over 99.9% of it.

For snuff to be effective, only about 50% needs to be freebased. Authentic snuff prepared by shamans normally has a pH of about 9.5, meaning only 50% of the bufotenine is freebased.

In Anadenanthera By Constantino Manuel Torres, David B. Repke, page 124, samples of authentic snuff were analyzed and found to have a pH of 9.2 and 9.4. So bringing the pH much higher is not necessary and probably detrimental.

very helpful ron... im envious you have manuels book.. hes a great guy.
would it be OK to snuff the Sodium Carbonate? yah think? never worked with it... but that sounds a hell of a lot better then snuffing the calcium hydroxide to be honest or ammonia... snuffing ammonia is like snuffing used kitty litter lol.

Well SWIM is thinking that this may be a matter of smoking methodology... then...

indeed..that is my feeling as well..and since SWIM was able to get very powerful effects..but not as powerful as he could imagine..hes thinking that its his smoking technique..SWIM will have to construct a vaporizer for this purpose..

Alkaloids absorb best when the nose pH is at or higher than the pKa of the alkaloid. For bufotenine, that’s a pH close to 9.6 or above. They also absorb best if the nose is slightly burned by a strong base. The lesions caused by the strong base allow the alkaloid better access into the blood stream.

I hate to say it, but calcium hydroxide is the best for use with snuff made from seeds. That’s why the shamans use it. The burn from it helps the alkaloids absorb better by causing very small lesions in the tissues in the nose. It’s used for betel nut for the same reason. It both freebases and causes lesions. It’s water solubility is very low so it stays in the nose for a long time without dissolving, keeping the nose pH alkaline for a long time giving the alkaloids more time to dissolve as freebase. That’s one of it’s big advantages.

Don’t use sodium carbonate. SWIM tried using sodium carbonate and put a little too much. Although it’s a little weaker of a base than calcium hydroxide (lime), it burns like crazy because it’s much more water soluble and dissolves right into your nose really fast. You’ll have a sore nose for a few days if you put a little too much. Calcium hydroxide is a stronger base but because it’s far less water soluble, it takes a long time to dissolve and so the pain is much less than that felt from sodium carbonate. Also because the sodium carbonate dissolves so rapidly, it doesn’t keep the nose pH alkaline for very long, meaning the alkaloids have less time to dissolve as freebase. Once all the base is gone, the remaining alkaloids start forming salts right in the nose. That’s not good. The salt forms don’t absorb well at all and have more side effects because of it.

Sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) is a different compound from sodium carbonate. It’s a much weaker base and not very effective for snuff. It doesn’t cause any lesions and doesn’t freebase enough of the bufotenine. It’s also too water soluble so it quickly dissolves in the nose, meaning the freebased alkaloids have much less time to dissolve as freebase and start forming salts in the nose.

Ammonia can freebase all the bufotenine easily. It won’t work well for snuff because it evaporates away and doesn’t cause lesions in the nose. Because it evaporates away, it doesn’t keep the nose alkaline long enough for all the alkaloids to absorb as freebase, so much of them start forming salts in the nose. However, ammonia is great for producing a smokeable snuff because it all evaporates; and when smoking the alkaloids, you don’t need to worry about keeping the lungs alkaline because the freebase alkaloids absorb really fast into the blood stream via the lungs.

Calcium carbonate (not to be confused with calcium hydroxide or sodium carbonate) might work pretty well without burning your nose. Like calcium hydroxide (lime) it’s water solubility is very low so it stays in the nose for a long time without dissolving, keeping the nose pH at about 9.8 for a long time allowing all the alkaloids to eventually freebase and get absorbed as freebase. But it doesn’t cause lesions like calcium hydroxide does, and so it will take longer for the alkaloids to absorb. This should slow down the trip’s onset and also make the effects a little weaker. So it’s a trade off. But because all the alkaloids will absorb as freebase, the effects should be virtually the same as if one used calcium hydroxide, only a little weaker with a slower onset.


When snuffing pure freebase bufotenine, using a base like calcium hydroxide helps it absorb faster and prevents it from salting in the nose. But its not that necessary as it is with whole seed snuff because the amount of material is so small that it absorbs at a much faster rate than whole seed snuff does. But it still makes a noticeable difference. If you mix the bufotenine with a little calcium hydroxide, it will absorb faster, be a little more visual, and have less side effects. SWIM has tried snorting pure bufotenine with calcium carbonate instead of calcium hydroxide. It is nearly as effective and doesn’t burn much. Bufotenine itself burns the nose a little tiny bit but calcium carbonate doesn’t. The mix of calcium carbonate and bufotenine actually burns less than pure bufotenine does. I’m not sure why. But the effects are identical to those felt from mixing calcium hydroxide with the pure bufotenine, only the onset is a little shorter, and the effects are a little weaker, but not much.

so then here is a question... what was the original base used by indigeous folks that did this originally?

Calcium carbonate?
or
calcium hydroxide?
what is the lime they mix with coca leaves technically? or the burnt remains of say snail shells? or the traditional additives that where used in the snuffs?


its interesting just as a side note on calcium hydroxide from wikipedia...
Health risks

As with many chemicals, exposure may pose health risks:[3]

* Inhalation: Respiratory tract irritation. Coughing, shortness of breath, chemical bronchitis.
* Ingestion: Internal bleeding, possible perforation of esophagus, severe pain, vomiting, diarrhea, and collapse.
* Eyes: severe irritation, pain, ulceration, blindness.
* Skin: burns, blistering.
* Chronic Exposure: dermatitis or severe irritation to skin.


not to be alarmist... im pretty damn sure that none of these health problem really exibit much of a threat in these applications that are spoken of here... but i foudn it interesting none the less...

The natives originally used burnt snail shells known as calcined snail shells. They contain mostly calcium oxide which is a very strong and dangerous base. When water is added while making the snuff the calcium oxide forms calcium hydroxide. So in an indirect way calcium hydroxide was the original base used by the natives.

Limestone is normally only used for coca quids by the natives. That’s mostly calcium carbonate. However calcined snail shells is used for coca in some areas.



I use calcium hydroxide all the time for making pickles. Those warnings are not quite right. Those look to me like the warnings for calcium oxide and not calcium hydroxide. A lot of people confuse calcium hydroxide with calcium oxide because calcium hydroxide is often called hydrated lime while calcium oxide is just called lime. If calcium hydroxide was that dangerous they wouldn’t sell it for cooking purposes and it would be sold with warnings on it. I’ve breathed some in, got some on my eyes, all over my hands while wet, and didn’t feel anything at all from it. Not even the tiniest of irritation. But if you put a lot in your nose or mouth and leave it there for several minutes, you’ll feel it. If you keep a paste of it on your hands for a few hours, you’ll feel it. And you should not eat it undiluted. It is a fairly strong base. But it’s no way near as dangerous as those warnings make it seem.

Calcium hydroxide is used in cooking and in many vitamin and mineral supplements. It’s completely safe and actually a great source of dietary calcium when diluted and used in the proper amounts. Lime water is a solution of water saturated with calcium hydroxide and that’s used undiluted as a calcium supplement.

makes sense...

swim is thinking about using DCM in step 10 ). Will that work?