Yes, self-discipline is why the nation with 5% of the global population and 25% of the global prison population is so "well-ordered." I'm sure it's self discipline and not the insanely militarized police force and strong sense of private property that keeps American society as it is. Come on polytrip, this has to be one of the least well-reasoned/critically-thought-out arguments I've ever seen from you.

Slavery has no bearing because it's been ubiquitous throughout history? Really? Really?!?!??? I'm sure people who have experienced either chattel or wage slavery would agree with that assertion. The thing is, slavery is an individual experience. Just because it's been present throughout history does not mean that the actual instance of US slavery and all of the complex socio-economic and racial factors that accompanied and resulted from it have no influence on today's US population. The modern police force in the US can be directly traced to slave-catching gangs from the South (to say nothing of the drug war, prison labor, or a whole host of other issues)...so yeah.

Also, do you really mean to assert that the US is wealthy because of its spirit of "self-discipline?" If so, you need to brush up on your history. The reason the US is wealthy is because of the dominant role it assumed during and following World War II. Throughout the course of the war, the US envisioned and then established the "Grand Area" plan for the world, whereby huge sections of the globe would be subordinated to US interests. In other words: they used violence. As WWII and the US's role, influence, and ultimately, power, increased well beyond what analysts had predicted, the "grand area" came to encompass the majority of the world.

This is not the spirit to abolish slavery...this is the will to enslave. This is the capitalist profit motive seeking to subjugate all else to its internal logic. The argument you seek to make is ludicrous in the face of historical facts. Industrial globalization has claimed more lives and created more slaves than any geopolitical system prior to it, and "self-discipline" has nothing to do with it.

"And why isn´t that crazy shit going on where you live? Why isn´t vancouver like new delhi? Maybe because there are cop´s, DA´s and judges that don´t take bribes. Maybe because there IS something like the rule of law. Maybe, all it would take to turn your world into those 'isolated places', is the absence of those very cop´s that some wish didn´t exist.

Ever heard of the phrase 'be carefull what you wish for?'. But wishes are seldom rational, i know....just bless yourself for there being no fairy´s with magic wonds."

You have obviously never been to east Vancouver Polytrip. The place is ripe with police brutality and unwarrented use of force. Drug laws are enforced filling up the prison systems while on the corner big pharma hands out methadone..gangs war with each other shooting in the streets due to the black market that the current laws hold in place. People shuffle up and down the streets like zombies with blank faces trying to find a box to sleep under or a bag they can wrap around themselves with in the rain..that is when they dont have to run and hide from the RCMP for their victimless problems.

Our legal system here is broke and it's breaking everything else.

There is also a huge ammount of rape and abuse here still..women gone missing on the highway of tears..it goes on and on. Just becasue we have laws does not mean it all goes away..nor does it negate all the damage the RCMP has done in canada to both the first nations peoples and everyone else.

The place is a fucking desolate hole of misery.

You probly also dont live in America right? Do you have to see indian reservations all around with poor people living in third world situations on the land that was stolen from them? Do you even understand anything about what goes on here? Native peoples are abused here all the fucking time by the RCMP, getting the shit beat out of them and left for the gutter.

Please dont try to sell us some line about judges not taking bribes. That is known to go on everywhere.

You think everyone in america has it so great? Try walking in some of these peoples shoes. They all have laws and police there to "protect" them as well..How would you like to be a first nations person living on some of the reservations up north here where the RCMP abuse the hell out of them? Sure, I am white..guess I'm safe.

Im getting the feeling polytrip that you are just sitting in a house somewhere sheltered and never had any real experience being on the other end of the law when they choose to discriminate or use unwarrented force.

If you had had the experiences of some other people, or witnessed this going on in front of you you might be saying completely different things. One good deed does not negate one or two prior assults on innocent people and their lives, families etc..Just becasue some police officers try to do something good, or becasue some laws might make sense does not mean the actions as a whole are suddenly okay.

Why should I settle for less rapists when minority groups are still targeted and abused by the police, laws that incriminate innocent people stand that essentially trap them in cages for years etc? Are we choosing sides here? Are you saying that abused minority/ethnic groups and putting people in little cages for years to suffer for victimless/harmless acts is better than someone being raped etc?

I just dont understand your reasoning here. You take one example from across the planet in a foreign place with an entirely different culture, different values etc and compare it to something completely different to make vague points and really just to belittle others on the internet, call them names like stoners and insult their intelligence etc. You treat people here sort of like we are all fucking idiots when you make these threads. It sounds like you want to attack people to be honest and you use these threads to do that. It starts pointless arguements again and again and again all about the same thing.

Do you really think that people here dont believe in taking action againt rapists etc? I mean, come on thats what this is really about..if you think that people here support that kind of a mentality than you must have a really really REALLY low opinion of everyone here.

And as far as i know, enslaving women and forcing them to work as prostitutes is illegal and the police is hunting for people who commit these crimes and putting them behind bars where they belong. You want them to go ahead and do as they please, because you don´t want the police to stop them and put them behind bars as you don´t want there to be prisons and policemen.

As far as rapists and murderers in prisons...i don´t care much about their lack of freedom. maybe you see them as political prisoners...your worldview is narrow and weird enough for it.

About outsourced slavery..as i said, those are sovereign nations where slavery is legal and where 90% of all slaves work to serve domestic demands. If the west tried to move those countries to respect human rights i have no doubt you would shout cultural imperialism as the chinese, russian, syrian, etc governments always do when human rights are mentioned.
Ofcourse it is wrong for western companies to take advantage of the lack of civilisation that still exists in other nations, but those regimes over there and the cultural values that people over there have allow for slavery to exist.

Your hate against the system is irrational and blinds you from the fact that in the real world things aren´t as black and white as you would like to believe.

I know that you won´t listen to my arguments, because your emotions are just too strong. For what it´s worth, i aplaud you for at least having your irrationality grounded in moral instead of selfish sentiments.

But serious...do you realy believe that the police is working for the elites, to opress the poor? How do you picture that? Headcommisionars speach: 'OK people, remember, we´re working for the rich here, let all of those child rapists walk and go harras some poor people'.

Well, you´re right. I have never been in america.

If you´re right, then maybe america is not a civillised place as i have always thought it was.

I know that over here where i live, policemen are generally friendly and reasonable people trained to de-escalate potential violent situations. They will always try to reason with people first and only use force if there is no other way and not using force would mean that other people would get hurt.

Policemen and women over here pride themselves in being able to de-escalate and calm agressive people down.

Maybe you should think about moving to northern europe, if it´s realy that bad in canada. Seriously. You would maybe get a more positive view of mankind if you would visit the benelux, germany or the scandinavian countries. I have never felt any fear for the police here.

really

"And why isn´t that crazy shit going on where you live?"

to be honest i think your delusional, and your condescending way of trying to coerce people to view things as you delusionally do is offensive and ridiculous

i live in the US, and not even a particularly violent spot AT ALL.. and still i have several woman friends who have either been raped, or narrowly escaped a rape...despite our laws and the oh-so-nice policemen around here :-P

a girl i used to see lives in a very wealthy part of town and was ripped out of the shower a few years ago at knife-point by a guy in a mask who attempted to rape her

just the other day a good friend of mines little sister was nearly raped in a high school hallway, in broad daylight, by a group of kids. luckily her friends found her before it was too late. no arrests were made. i also know many who have fallen victim to police brutality

yes, its much worse in other parts of the world. and yea, i'm incredibly lucky to live where i live. but come on.. your overly romanticized view of western society as some very positive development that others should look up to is way off the mark in my opinion

My point polytrip was not about how afraid I feel..it was about how other groups are treated. There are actaully reservations in the US especially and in Canada where living conditions are no better than any other 3rd world country. It is not really much of a secret the case where the RCMP have basically murdered native people they pick up who are drunk etc up north..driving them off away from the towns and dumping them to freeze to death.

If your one of those people things likely start to look VERY different than if you are some white middle class person. I have no reason to jump for joy at the hippocracy of a system like that.

Of course in some ways this is getting better..but in many other ways it does not seem to be. People have this mentality that the native peoples are all lazy freeloaders(on stolen land) and the RCMP etc does not acknowledge the real problems-that these people grow up in broken communities that got that way becasue of the RCMP and what came before them. They just target these people. I know this..I have known people that went into law inforcement. My best friend throughout high school was training for RCMP..I stopped talking to him when I realized he was a racist judgemental religious sort of fool. He hates native..he hates mexicans etc..I have some seen some really ignorant people go into law inforcement and it shows at times in the actions of law inforcers.

Well, when i was a teenager, i used to hang around is squats with the stereotypical stoners. Many people here do remind me of those people. They used to live on wellfare, do nothing all day but smoking pot and look down at the hardworking taxpaying citizens who where paying their wellfare checks. Some of them used to steal food at the supermarket and shout 'fascism' and 'police-state' if they would get arrested. They never thought that there was anything wrong with stealing from a supermarket because it would only be stealing from a big corporation.

I don´t hate those people. I feel sorry for them, because they seemed to be lacking the willpower to make something out of their lives. Some of them where spoiled rich kids and others where from realy poor families with parents who would also be living in a totally unstructured way. They lacked any discipline because they never had the chance to learn it anywhere, like from their parents.

But sometimes, some of them managed to get out of that vegetative way of living. Usually girls. Men are often the more hopeless cases. Darwin is ruthless in that sense.

Sometimes, this community reminds me of those squads. The tone, the rhetoric, the one-sidedness, although the intellectual level is way higher.

I think it´s the basic emotional attitude that people get from being cast-out (as drug users or maybe in other ways as well). Wich is one of the reasons why casting people out is always so utterly stupid and counterproductive for any society.

I´ve always had the tendency to go against the views of the majority..anywhere. Dogmatic consensus makes me feel uncomfortable. I like being able to see the bigger picture. I wouldn´t want to have my view of the world narrowed down to that of the majority of the people. But you know...it´s not always easy to consistently see how others just 'don´t get it'. I´m sure you know that feeling.

A lot of racism is involved in the US prison system.... look at the statistics for who is locked up. Wether it is intentional or not isn't the issue, something is very wrong with how the system works and there needs to be changes.

I work 80 hours a week mate. Most of it volunteering.



No problem playing devils advocate, but I don't believe this is just the case. I feel that you've personally insulted me and other people in this thread because of their views..... that is extremely disrespectful mate, I respect your opinion (I disagree with it), and I would never say your world view is to weird and narrow.... that just makes it super easy to get me into a shouting match and shuts down all communication between us. We get that you dislike the philosophy that many of us here hold, I don't mind the threads you make on it, but I DO mine the superiors attitude vibe I get from you.... maybe I am reading to much into it, but you sound like a jerk when you call my worldview weird and narrow... I don't know a nicer way of putting it.

There are so many points on either side of this argument that I find myself agreeing with, I think it underscores the complexity of the issue.

Here in America, we enjoy law and order while at the same time fearing the police. Sure, there's self discipline, but there's also fear.

I personally think the Emma Goldstein model is unrealistic, and that you'll find the Afghanistan model cropping up in the world WAY more. I do believe humans need a societal structure if we're all going to behave ourselves and not violate one another's peace and security. We have to be realistic. Unfortunately, this involves having human beings in positions of authority over one another. I remember a fellow stoner back in high school saying something along the lines of: "Remember, dude: cops are all people who wanted to be cops." That there is the rub: policing is a shitty job, and generally you'll get people who have control issues and want petty power over others. That's the sad reality- no matter whether the law is fair or not, those enforcing it are human and flawed.

So I don't have the answers to this. One thing I can say with reasonable certainty, though: Poly, please chill out. Your tone is not advancing your cause, whatever it may be. I sympathize with some of what you're saying here, but by and large it feels like you're looking for a fight. Why?

I think guyomech is way wiser than me.

You see, i´m so stupid that i want to help some of the people here to...well, to become more integrated into society and to be more effective in dealing with it, including all of it´s dark sides.

But i obvious lack the maturity of guyo to be able to do this in a gentle and subtle way.

I gues most of you are able to recognise the sort of well balanced maturity in guyo´s way of expressing himself. Most of you are probably able to instinctively feel how that attitude will get you further in life and will enable you to deal with life in a more positive way.

Maybe it has to do with parenthood. I have no childeren myself, but i am sort of the part-time replacement-father for my sisters childeren these days, because she is a single mom. I can tell you that childeren change your perspective on life. You feel a responsibility for them that you never felt before, you worry about their safety, you no longer think about your own little problems. That´s just what childeren do to people.

I think that some of you will understand when you have childeren yourself. That life is about more than getting high and the right to get high and all that stuff...that you want people you care about to be growing up in a safe environment.

Poly, I don't think anyone really disagrees with that basic premise. They are being critical of a flawed system. They have valid points, and not everyone will agree.

The stoner in me says: chill.

you nailed it with the photo

Briefly:

Anarchism (as understood in general, esp. outside the US)
1) opposes state and capital
2) adheres to non-hierarchical organization
3) incorporates concepts of autonomy, mutual aid, cooperation, free association, etc.

What is seen in Afghanistan is not a model of Anarchy, unless you are using Anarchy to mean the absence of a government that is legitimate in the eyes of its citizens. I believe that is how it is being used here, but it is not really a meaningful political usage of the term and it is completely removed from actual anarchist ideology (making it a poor usage when discussing political beliefs associated with anarchy). If the factions in Afghanistan (and similar locations) are examined, it is easy to see that they are not anarchist in ideology, tactics, etc., and that what exists in those regions is not anarchy, but militant conflicts in a power vacuum.

Anarchy is not the absence of a social structure. It is the absence of a social contract created and enforced by the State, granting the State a monopoly on the legitimate use of force in order to coerce and control the population. It is the creation of a society whereby people are not wage slaves under the perpetual threat of State brutality. It is a society where the exploitation of human beings and ecosystems is not viewed as "external" to increasing corporate profits...where "progress" is not a coded word for consumption and production...where the interests of an elite class are not presented as those of "the people."

States have, historically, been the bloodiest entities to exist on the planet. The argument that we need the State, that we need police (a modern invention in the last 200 years), that we need strangers in positions of authority over us in order to maximize peace and civility is literally contrary to the global history of the State and its institutions.

Well Snozz, I certainly don't disagree with any of that, in principle. They're great ideas. I just think that, in this world of humans, it's not realistic or workable, at least not in any way I could possibly imagine coming to pass. Whether that makes me pragmatic, or fatalist, or apathetic, I really don't know.

What do you mean by "workable" though?..I dont see how the current system is really working all that well well when you concider a larger picture. The current system(inclusding it's laws) allows for mass environmental destruction, inhumane laws surrounding personal rights(where people are literally locked in cages for years), trade agreements that support sweatshop style oversees labour...the list goes on and on. It's just organized crime essentially. It's like the mob runs the show, and they have all the guns etc so people get in line. It looks orderly becasue it is. It is a pyramid structure. That does not mean it's really working for our betterment though.

The reality is that most people are just doing what they know how to do. Noone is really out to get anyone else for the most part..people do crazy things for all sorts of reasons often thinking it is the best route.

When we start to talk about what can work and what cannot work, we should take stock for a moment of the current situation as a reference point. In this case, our current situation is not a good reference point for what is workable.

It is just that we have sort of stablized within this model and I think we have grown acustomed to it so we assume this is what works or something..that is how I view it anyway. Sure people might be less inclined on adverage to shoot you or rob you in fear of the law, but then you can look to other areas where this system we have going is just complete insanity and it breeds hypocracy.

I guess what I mean is, how do you propose getting there? Start by convincing everyone who loves or is addicted to power to step down? Kill them all and rapidly fill the power vacuum with Goldstein's model? Arrive at it through legislation? Maybe I'm lacking imagination here, but I just have a hard time picturing anything better than the slow, incremental improvement of what we already have- either that or something truly catastrophic, which would just leave us with a power vacuum to be filled by Afghan-style warlords. Or am I missing something here?

I am open, really. But this is the place where I've always gotten stuck in this conversation.

Well unless you have an army you are not telling us about we change things from the inside over time..my only point was that this system itself does not work so well. Replacing something that the people with all the guns, money and power depend on, with something that takes that away from them is the problem.

Who is goldstein? I never heard of them so I cant speak to replacing anything with that model.