Now we have all heard the stories: "My friends knows a guy who took a hit of acid and now he thinks he's a banana", "___ went insane after eating mushrooms", you name it. Then we also see people on here some 17,000 members(Aug-17-2012) and have heard of comparatively very few complications with mental health and psychedelics. Well, I read something yesterday that utterly disgusted me, I will omit names as I don't want to chastize someone on their ignorance, but here is the discussion.



A lot of the conversation was trimmed down to high-light the problematic thinking.

Now it's all fine and dandy to accept alternative medicine, philosophies, etc, without any proof. No harm, no foul. In fact some of these alternative perspectives are valid and improve lives over readily accepted ones. However, myself being a person who is challenged with a mental disorder feels the kind of thinking in the above conversation is ridiculous, harmful, and off-base. So I have decided to take my time and educate people on schizophrenia a little bit. I won't touch up on psychosis or bipolar disorder, as I don't know as much about them.

First of all 1 in 100 people have or will have(latent) schizophrenia at some point in their lives. Some instances more serious then others. 40% of these people will attempt suicide. The majority of males do not get married, the females generally do as it develops later in their lives. They all struggle with social contact even high-functioning ones. Some 30% are treatment and medication resistant. 70%-90%(depending on population of survey) smoke tobacco to gate their senses. It tends to get worse with age. A lot of them live lives of poverty(many home-less people) and self-medicate with hard-drugs and alcohol. These people have different brain structures and neuro-chemistry then the 'norm'(99%) of humanity. This is not a personality trait or a perspective.

Ventricular size's in schizophrenic persons brains are often larger then others. There are also abnormal volume changes in the cortex, frontal and temporal lobes during normal aging. There are also huge differences in NMDA receptor site functionality as well as serotonin and dopamine. In fact PCP(NMDA antagonist), LSD(serotonin agonist), and amphetamine induced psychosis(dopamine agonist), are all used for modeling schizophrenia and finding medications. These are fairly accurate models.

So, no you cannot pray or meditate this away, or come to a realization and overcome it. Most sufferers do not even know the things they are experiencing are not real until after the fact(if ever). Some peoples brains ARE physically very different. Some people acquire schizophrenia as children. So no, it has nothing to do with being an evil person or some karmic debt. So now what does this have to do with psychedelics beyond modelling the illness and brain functionality?

As many or some of you may or may not know. It is true that psychedelics can trigger latent mental illnesses to come into full effect. This is not a case against psychedelics as a traumatic or stress inducing experience can do the same. However, psychedelics can be a pretty effective way of triggering latent mental illnesses. This was first notated in the early LSD studies. Though if a car crash can trigger latent mental illness, losing a loved one, or being raped, and that doesn't make a person "evil", how does smoking DMT? ... I believe one needs to seriously re-evaluate their perspective on psychedelics and the physical nature of their existence if they have come to such a conclusion with a strong volume of repeatable and observable evidence to suggest this.

Some more myths about schizophrenia are that these people are dangerous, out of control, comitting crimes, and cannot live quasi-normal lives. Some cases may be deemed as 'dangerous' in general though the vast majority of these people are more a danger to themselves than anyone else. Manic's, antisocial's and psychopathic persons usually are a lot more prone to violence and crime. The majority of these peoples out of control behaviour happen in their minds and in their language, not in their actions. Generally they are victims of crimes as manipulative people readily take advantage of the psychologically 'weak'. Many moderate to high functioning schizophrenic people can manage jobs, some relationships, and hobbies. They can be very spiritual people, and are not always in a state of deep despair or anything like that. It's still not a joy-ride as some people have implied.

Is schizophrenia as Terrance McKenna had claimed? A shamanic pony ride through the magic spirit-world? I suppose this is up to a persons perspective as there isn't any evidence for a spirit-world outside of some peoples interpretations of experiences... I will let you watch a video of a typical schizophrenic person and you can judge for yourself...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGnl8dqEoPQ
(Also please see what Snozzleberry posted after this post!)

In conclusion, not everyone is built to come back from a heavy psychedelic experience. If you are going to dose someone you must realize THERE IS A CHANCE, albeit small, it could irreversibly ruin their life. Bipolar disorder, schizophrenic type disorders, and people with family histories of such are most likely for adverse reactions. If that does happen to someone you have dosed, they are NOT evil. Probably best to use discretion, research and critically think about things before you speak about them, or judge them. Never hear only one side, always entertain all sides until something clear comes through the mist. Much love, enjoy your stay on planet Earth.

If you need help with mental illness please seek adequate help. Psychedelic chat-rooms and forums can't do much for you beyond love you(which the Nexus will!). Most people can not understand what you're going through even if they think they do. Emergency rooms will take people in immediately if suicidal, manic, or psychotic/schizo behaviour is evident. There are also hot-lines that vary depending on the country.

Please feel free to reply with more information pertaining to the topic! I think education on this is relevant.

*note - this is a work in progress and I will return to this later providing references.

No...and anthropological study has borne this out.

"Schizophrenia (or serious psychotic disorder) is identified as an illness in all societies."

"From a contemporary perspective, overwhelming and compelling evidence indicates that shamanism as a practice is distinctly different from schizophrenia. Shamans and other spiritual experts have experiences that are culturally prescribed, at times that are culturally appropriate, and they usually have had a choice about whether to embrace their roles. People with schizophrenia do not have this choice. Many of those who work in the area presume that shamans and other spiritual experts draw on a psychological capacity for dissociation and absorption, whereas schizophrenia is a psychotic process (Peters & Price-Williams 1980, Noll 1983, Stephens & Suryani 2000)."

(Luhrmann, 2011)

Very informative read.

I think the most important point you make is to analytically consider outlandish claims rather than go on spouting them off as fact to others.

Ever heard of the guy who dropped acid and afterward he permanently thought he was a glass of orange juice!?

;p

peace and love,
Purp

I'm reluctant to believe that there is such a big difference between the experiences of shamans and the experiences of schizophrenics. How they handle those experiences is a different story. I've seen people freak out while experiencing psychedelia and I've seen people freak out due to the pressure of everyday life, so it seems to me that some people are indeed mentally incapable of dealing with certain experiences that others have no problem dealing with, and this is why I am reluctant to conclude, once and for all, that all schizophrenics are experiencing things that others, who are not deemed schizophrenic, are not experiencing. In the end, there's no way to know. Gerald is probably experiencing more than your average everyday crazy, I'll give him that. My tendency is to assume that schizophrenia is not much different from certain aspects of psychedelic experience, but that is only because I've never heard anything from a schizophrenic, about schizophrenia, that persuaded me otherwise. Please elaborate on the subjective aspects of schizophrenia if I am wrong. Otherwise, I don't like to think that some people's perspectives are "crazy". All claims to knowledge or truth are crazy. Nothing is known for sure. I've always liked what Dave Chappelle said about viewing others' outlook as crazy:



Also, I don't know what to think about the orange juice thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/...8or_becomes_an_orange.29

About the orange juice thing... I didn't mean for it to be literal but it's an example of something that get's tossed around about episodes of psychosis.

If you would have read my thread you would have realized I am talking about mental illness not people just 'freaking out'. Well I can tell you this much I experience delusions, and hallucinations sober and have had them before taking psychedelics gradually getting worse into my late teens early twenties. When I take psychedelics I can distinctly tell the difference between the drug and my mind skipping-beats. For example I can hear mushroom static sound distortions but also hear a voice such as jim morrison reciting poetry to me on a relatively medium dose. It is not like dropping acid or smoking dmt at all...

EDIT - for example. A schizophrenic delusion could consist of "There are cameras watching me everywhere I go","Everyone is following me and wants to kill me", "You did something horrible(that you didn't do) and now you will pay for it", or threatening words appearing in brick textures tell you something, telepathic conversations with people who don't exist, seeing people and creatures who don't exist, etc. Not to say these are out of reaches of the psychedelic experience but it's very different.

The context is totally different, the experiences are completely different, the body feelings are different, the mind-set is more dissociative then psychedelic ime, there is no lucid sense of control over the experience, etc. Two totally different things.

You really think you are experiencing the same things schizophrenic people are? That's funny because it's pretty easily diagnosed when people start mentioning people that aren't there to anyone else...

Also, read what snozz posted about schizophrenia and shamanism for a pretty clear understanding...

InMotion,

I remember reading somewhere (I think something by Strassman) talking about higher levels of endogenous DMT produced by schizophrenic folks.

Do you know if there is any validity in regards to this or is it just speculation?

"Never hear only one side, always entertain all sides until something clear comes through the mist. Much love, enjoy your stay on planet Earth."


Indeed, one have to walk a mile somebodies else shoes to know what they been walking. Judging somebody for first impressions is like judging the taste of a banana before eating it

Purple_Dye: DMT, Bufotenine, and 5-MEO-DMT were all speculated to play parts in schizophrenia at one time or another. Urinary analysis of metabolites and I believe blood tests revealed there is no correlation.

Interestingly there was a theory that the endogneous, suspected hallucinogen, nuerotoxin, adrenochrome does play a role. It is formed supposedly by over oxidized dopamine precursors and exacerbated by MAO inhibition(interestingly). A lot of people disagree with this theory as the main proponant is a guy named A. Hoffer(iirc). Who coincidentally worked with Humphrey Osmund(coiner of the term 'Psychedelic' iirc) back in the LSD days. His route of treatment involves mega doses of niacin(a B vitamin) coupled with high dose vitamin C, this approach is called an orthomolecular approach. Supposedly niacin also helps bring people down from bad LSD trips as well. His results haven't been recreated with too much success but he is still alive today and swearing by the treatment after 40 some odd years. I will attach an article about his theory on schizophrenia all though it is suspect it is interesting.

Have you ever Benetripped (~23 Benedryl)? That's the closest I've been to what I imagine you're describing. I wouldn't say it's psychedelic. I never had visual hallucinations like some do, but at least a few times I found myself hearing voices in conversation and cutting in, only to realize that there was nobody around.

The problem with my view of schizophrenia is that it's based on the 2 people I know who have been diagnosed with schizophrenia, neither of which claim to have seen people who aren't there to anyone else. The one that I've talked to more about it describes episodes that caused her to freak out, so I don't really know how else such experiences manifest as physical actions for others, and I have a really hard time imagining how the voices in their heads who tell them to do bad things are different from the voices in my head that tell me to do bad things. Then again, neither of them have described their experiences as well as you just did. Schizophrenics are generally steered away from using psychedelic drugs and thus don't have phrases like "mushroom static sound distortions" at their disposal. Would you say that psychedelics have helped you to better understand or communicate your experiences in any way?

I didn't realize that about Bufo.

Ah adrenochrome... Clockwork Orange comes to mind.

I take niacin pretty frequently, but I use it to increase my HDL levels. Its been pretty effective thus far in regards to that. Not sure if it's just me but niacin does seem to produce a mild alteration to my perception. If anything its somewhat sedative but this is just personal speculation. I wouldn't be surprised one bit if higher doses suppressed a LSD trip.

@hixidom - There are many forms under the schizophrenic subtype of mental disorder. So it's very hard to say. For me the voices repeat over and over a lot of times to spite whatever else I am thinking about. Makes it very hard to concentrate. I don't know whether I am a 'schizophrenic' or 'schizotypal' or what, just *yet*(appointment soon). Though in my experience psychedelics have helped, and hurt me at times. Probably not unlike normal people but maybe in more esoteric areas.

Psychedelics have helped me learn my mind a bit better, become a bigger skeptic, find my passions in life, helped pick me up off the ground a few times and forgive people. On the flip-side there have been times where I've dealt with psychedelic stuff that I just wish I didn't have too, and it has set me off the rails a few times. So personally my work with psychedelics is pretty different from many of the people on here. I dose low, I take time between doses and try to have people around for grounding and giggles. Granted I'm not like the guy in that video.

It's give and take, and I'm not so sure I recommend other people in similar positions to do what I do. Interestingly though 5-HT3A(some psychedelics hit here) receptor agonists are being researched for antipsychotics and show a lot of promise with very little side-effects! Also interestingly Cannabidiol has been shown to be a side-effect free antipsychotic, THC on the other hand not so much. Maybe these dichotomies of drug action explain this "give and take", or maybe not .

@Purple_Dye: I also take niacin supplements. Makes my pee green! Hehe. I do agree they are somewhat 'relaxing' in nature, and are recommended for anxiety and depression and other mental stuff. They also have anti-oxidant effects(iirc) which is important for health!

I have had true schizophrenic people in my family. My great grandmother was. She had a few personalities, would have sex with the mailman and blame it on my grandmother etc..she chased her family around with a knife at one point while off her medication..she spent lots of time at the ward.

Personally I dont buy the whole psychedelic/schizophrenic overlap thing. They are 2 different things. Many things can trigger schizophrenia in people..psychedelics may be one of them but a psychedelic state does not = schizophrenic states IMO.

I'm sorry for implying that I know what your illness puts you through. That's a naive view. I wish I could better understand what it's like, but I can't step inside you and see things from behind your mind. I just like to believe that our minds all work the same way and we all experience the same things, but that sometimes results in my ignorance of the reality and seriousness of mental illness. Shame on me. Thanks for setting me straight.

sort of unrelated but I have been taking niacin also and I was feeling sort of phased out and sketchy at times later on into my second year being 100% raw vegan. I feel 100% better now that I have in a long time just from adding in B vitamines, DHA and some eggs into my diet. Even my trips have gotten better and I feel more stable in the ayahuasca state.

Excellent post InMotion!!

First off can i say it's horrible hearing stories of misinformation. Psychedelics always seem to get tarred by this brush but in my experience things like amphetamines and mda have a much higher chance of kicking off hidden schizophrenia or psychosis. I was a totally sane normal person growing up, absolutely no sign of psychosis. I even tried mushrooms and lsd and still no psychosis etc. Then one day i tried speed and then i realised about paranoia and psychotic thinking long after the drug wore off. Then one night speed and mda combo changed my personality for life. I was a drug induced schizophrenic at that point.

Why didn't the natural mushrooms or very potent hallucinogen kick off my psychoticness? Yet the crappy speed did. I can visit psychotic schizophrenia land anytime i want with a dose of speed but i could smoke dmt all night long and never become psychotic!

I actually ended up getting sectioned after taking an overdose of valium (another drug which can produce psychotic events in my life) In the ward with proper schizophrenics. Once the valium and thorazine were out my system i was back to baseline i.e sanity, i became friends with a couple of schizophrenics on the wards. They seemed to trust me, i think this was because i have experienced the drug induced version of their illness. To me it sounded like an exact copy of stuff i experienced but one difference was that they seemed to associate the devil with the evil in their delusions. I never had devil thoughts, just bad people thoughts.

Cheers again InMotion

You should really take a look at the paper I posted in the second post in this thread.

Very often, a psychosic episode like for instance triggered by schizophrenia dimishes cognitive functions and is paired with extreme depressions. People who´re schizophrenic are most of the time not able to think rationally, to look at their delusional ideas critically and to think in a very coherent way. Most of the times, their thinking is wildy chaotic and instead of reasoning they tend to associate. For instance, when i want to eat spinach today i will go to the grocery store and buy myself some spinach. A person suffering from a psychosis (like a schizophrenic), would more think along the lines: Spinach is green, so i must look for green signs and follow them.

A psychedelic normally doesn´t affect a persons cognitive abilities in that way and it doesn´t cause a person to be immensely depressed. It normally doesn´t cause a person to suffer immensely like schizophrenia does.
Psychedelic´s do not make your mind foggy, while psychotic people tend to be very foggy.

I have heard weird voices talk to me on psychedelic´s, but this never freaked me out because i was always able to realise that the voices where caused by a substance i had just taken. I never tended to jump to dramatic conclusions based on hearing these voices. Schizophrenic´s who hear voices are usually not able to do that.

i find that an important distinction.

I think both of you agree pretty much 100% polytrip.

Don't spill me bro!!!!!!!

Iirc, this is an urban myth