..hey, just a bit of wild hypothesizing inspired by something jamie wrote in another thread:


..i have often pondered how enjoyable or 'more of shamanic/theraputic usage' some Multi-alkaloid plants can be, and also how ayahuasca is more suited to general healing and recall in the usual sense, than smoked DMT (for many people)
..also, changa seems to be favoured by it's users for allowing more 'working time', if you like, and an easier to integrate into ordinary memory experience..multi-alkaloid
plants are, in a sense, a step closer to something like changa, but the mixture is decided by nature..

..the pure DMT vapor experience is maybe for most humans beyond ordinary description or comprehension.."translinguistic" as the McKenna brothers put it..
..nature's machine code, or interspecies luminal language (& much more) if you will

..but the addition of other alkaloids (eg. beta-carbolines, NMT) modifies the condition into one more translatable by humans ("easier to 'work' with" ), or easier to integrate with memory & self identity..
a "..direct addressing of the organism" more tailored to our everyday understanding and recall, perhaps because the mixture (translinguistic exo-pheromones) more resembles our daily neuro-conscious make-up
..as fractal enhancement points out, the whole pineal/endogenous issue is more complex than usually portrayed..

..a plant containing DMT,5meoDMT,NMT & beta-carbolines could be said to be, in one way, evolutionarily closer to our species than those which are purely DMT (or purely any alkaloid).. DMT may be closer to, say, mantis or octopoid perceptual language..

..none of this is to undermine the awesome spiritual power of the pure DMT experience, it's more about how to regularly work with these tools..

..which brings me to Yopo,Hekula,Vilca,Virola type snuffs and their uses (which have long fascinated me), classic multi-alkaloiders..
..as well as being suited to group chanting & solidarity, shaking and body painting, one of their primary cultural roles (contrasting with general ayahuasca) is directly contacting spirits/divination..
i recall years ago there were serious bushfires in parts of the amazon..highly traditional tribes could find no game to hunt as they had fled..a number a males were shown on the TV news giving eachother snuffs..they were said to be emergency contacting the forest spirits to find which direction to migrate in..

& then there's the old story of Vilca (or Cebil) seeds being smoked by shamans for divination (Schultze & Hoffman) in argentina or bolivia..anyone followed that up since?
..i once ingested 15 Vilca seeds (crushed) from Bolivia with 3g rue..led to very unusual, but visual, maybe bufotenine-like experience..dark & purging,quite theraputic 4hrs approx..but was told by bolivian source, "30 Vilca seeds or more abortifecant.."

...

Anadenanthera: visionary plant of ancient South America By Constantino Manuel Torres, David B. Repke
That is the info for a book with a lot of information that you would probably like.

Ancient remains indicating that the vilca was smoked are known.
In some cases natives incorporate caapi into snuff.

In the Shultes literature there is the great tale about him being in the amazon with a tribe, keep in mind he used many entheogens with many tribes but he never had a spiritual experience, nor did he contest the spiritual experiences of others. Anyway so he is using this snuff with this tribe and they run out, so the tell him, no worries we have something that does the same thing, and they grab some poison darts that they used for hunting and then scrape off the poison and present it to him as a snuff, telling him that it does the same thing, intimidated he tried it and well, it works and was totally active.

Personally I view these psychoactives as altering the filter of our senses and that the real active ingredient is mind.

..thanks AlbertKLloyd, can't wait to read it..
ps. inadvertently bio-assayed a fish-poison the other week (A. falacata, used by indigenous australians for that purpose)
..the fish, i would say, are stoned not dead when scooped from the water..
yeah, kinda 'does the same thing'..

(an indigenous friend has told me that most fish poisons do not harm humans, makes sense)

I must have missed this thread nen..thank you for this! Very interesting.

More work definatly needs to be done here. I am really interested in 5meoNMT and the other alkaloids in the wild grasses here..even though the DMT content is lower than other tryptamines and beta carbolines the idea of working with the total alkaloids(minus gramine, hordenine etc) is something I plan on for this summer.

..glad u noticed it jamie ..from my limited experience, plants with say DMT/5meo & ßcarboline all at once suggest a new level of immersion in the experience..and helps me imagine what may be going on internally in some of that far out yopo/hekula snuff footage..not for the faint-hearted or uncertain..!
.

..the recent example of Acacia mucronta tested by endlessness [NMT, tryptamine, 2MTHBC, harmine etc] is a good example of what i meant in the OP..
the state induced has it's own 'entheogenic' and therapeutic merit, but is not overwhelming nor highly visual, like a more DMT orientated state..
with greater knowledge of these other compounds which some plants seem to like, with or without their DMT, the concepts of possible states increases..

5meoDMT is quite overwhelming, and not very 'human'..personally if i was going to theorize what a 'death experience' tryptamine may be it would be 5meo, not n,n .
..

As I read this, two de-shelled and ground yopo seeds are sitting in my nostril. Just received some and decided to dip my feet in. It seems most people decide to basify with lime or snail shells.
At the tail-end of the experience now, have a dmt-ish glow. Auras still leaping about a bit. Colors rich. Had some faint closed eye visions earlier of entities. Carpet has tryptamine-esque features (faint alienish faces). Euphoric. Definitely handleable though as I am typing this now with ease and clarity. Was somewhat nauseous, achey and heavy a few minutes ago. Still wouldn't want to go on a run or something like that. I've never done 5-meo or bufo (except for just now I guess) before so I couldn't comment on the likeness to it. Interesting stuff. Definite synergy at work here as I can discern it not just being nn-dmt.

..great description cave paintings ..yeah synergies..more directions..the specialist tools of the shamans..?
also, non or less visual tryptamines like NMT can be a nice change, allowing different modes of experience..
.