[quote:b6be237c6c]All things are made of what they are and what they are not.[/quote:b6be237c6c] All things that are _made_ of what they _are_ and what they are _not_. There are ideas of beyond duality, where nothing is opposing or exist as we understand.

[quote:16b2391564="rightangle"][quote:16b2391564]Without light how could we know dark.[/quote:16b2391564] Without light we would only know the dark. Who said we need to know darkness anyway. You are stuck in the thinking of duality.[/quote:16b2391564] ...Then we go off on a tangent ..... How can we know anything at all.... I didn't even realise the duality of my comment but that is just a result of the duality of our existence. we are told things are separate and this concurs with our experience of reality. it doesn't meant it is true but only true enough for us to function in everyday reality. [quote:16b2391564="rightangle"]Well I'm certainly not saying this is all there is, others appears to be doing that by claiming that there is only perfection, I am actually trying to show exactly that this is _not_ all there is.[/quote:16b2391564] Because the words we use are based in duality the perfection that people are talking about is actually the im-perfection you are talking about.

[quote:80daba921d] ...Then we go off on a tangent ..... How can we know anything at all.... [/quote:80daba921d] Possibly a bigger tangent than you think, but I do enjoy talking about it. Put it this way, if the singular monad is 'utter fullness' , 'immearserable light" and 'lacks nothing' as per the description in the Gnostic "Secret Book of John" there is no "we" and there is no darkness. Darkness is a Lack of light. Back to creation and suffering. We don't need to suffer to know joy. Even _if_ we needed something that wasn't joy to define joy (I don't beleive we do but _if_ we did), then it could simply be a neutral feeling rather than an opposite and an extreme opposite in many cases. _If_ you needed lack of Love in order to remember or know what Love is (again I don't beleive it is the case) then you could just have a neutral feeling (a lack of) rather and complete opposite (i.e hate). [quote:80daba921d]we are told things are separate and this concurs with our experience of reality.[/quote:80daba921d] Yes, that is this reality. [quote:80daba921d] Because the words we use are based in duality the perfection that people are talking about is actually the im-perfection you are talking about. [/quote:80daba921d] Well, I don't want to speak too much for the perfection that is being talked about as an experience, but I would guess that the pefection seen and felt dosn't include the feeling or vision of extreme suffering. If I am wrong then please correct me. Infact there are many other imperfections other than suffering. It is imperfect that people are ignorant of perfection for example.

rightangle: You obviously haven't seen much of the big picture yet but some day you will. Be it this life or another. But some of us have seen and experienced more than you so we know. There's now way for you to change our understanding.

I'll take that as hint that you no longer wish participate in any form of debate DMTripper

[quote:ca57caeba4="DMTripper"]But some of us have seen and experienced more than you so we know.[/quote:ca57caeba4] Oh Oh Oh, Can I join your "knowing" club. Do you have a secret handshake ... j/k [quote:ca57caeba4="rightangle"] Even _if_ we needed something that wasn't joy to define joy (I don't beleive we do but _if_ we did), then it could simply be a neutral feeling rather than an opposite and an extreme opposite in many cases. _If_ you needed lack of Love in order to remember or know what Love is (again I don't beleive it is the case) then you could just have a neutral feeling (a lack of) rather and complete opposite (i.e hate). [/quote:ca57caeba4] I can see your taking an emotional stance against suffering. I believe that things cannot exist without context. If all was joy we wouldn't know how damn happy we all where [quote:ca57caeba4="rightangle"]It is imperfect that people are ignorant of perfection for example.[/quote:ca57caeba4] once again, if everything was perfect the imperfect would be part of that perfection. [quote:ca57caeba4="rightangle"]There are ideas of beyond duality, where nothing is opposing or exist as we understand.[/quote:ca57caeba4] I missed this post earlier, but its exactly what I've been saying. Non-duality. for there to be duality it must exist as polar opposites so they cancel each other out when they reach a non-dual state. we don't need to experience everything because we are all part of the same universe (i don't think thats the right word but it'll do...) thus people can and will suffer horribly without ever knowing Love and some people will drift through life happy as a pig in shit. in the end it all cancels out.

[quote:637dc16bd3]I can see your taking an emotional stance against suffering.[/quote:637dc16bd3] I'm just open to the truth of my reality. This is about the very nature of the material universe that we find ourselves in. As I've said, Buddha was opposed to suffering so much that his way out of it was to not live. The ancient Gnostics also see the way out as to escape the prison of matter. That way of thinking was stamped out (or I should say stomped out) in the west by the early church for nearly 2000 years, which is why I think it is so uncomfortable and alien for many. [quote:637dc16bd3]I issed this post earlier, but its exactly what I've been saying. Non-duality. for there to be duality it must exist as polar opposites so they cancel each other out when they reach a non-dual state.[/quote:637dc16bd3] I was thinking of the idea of something beyond the idea of the nulling of duality (which results in a a big fat zero). The idea of a singular monad that can exist alone because it is 'utter fullness' and 'lacks nothing'. If something is infinite, there is no duality as there is nothing else other than it... it is fullness that fills fullness. Infinite light so that there is no place for darkness. Beyond the material universe of duality which is full of limits and even suffers from entropy like icecream in the sun. Of course in our normal state our mind we can't comprehend the infinite which is another example of a limitation or restriction of our state in that we are removed, cut/off and blinded by our conscious / ego to our root. [quote:637dc16bd3]I believe that things cannot exist without context. If all was joy we wouldn't know how damn happy we all where [/quote:637dc16bd3] Yeah I know the theory, I just don't happen to agree. As I said, even if you did need a reference point know how joyfull you actually where it could be a breif null rather than a raging opposite. [quote:637dc16bd3] we don't need to experience everything because we are all part of the same universe (i don't think thats the right word but it'll do...) thus people can and will suffer horribly without ever knowing Love and some people will drift through life happy as a pig in shit. in the end it all cancels out.[/quote:637dc16bd3] I see a problem with a system that balances out the Holocaust with a comedy festival. Ever heard the song Tainted Love ? Good song, love the bass tone. Ever eaten a peanut butter and shit sandwich ? You can't get the shit off it, but some people just eat it anyway. I prefer just plain peanut butter myself. [quote]once again, if everything was perfect the imperfect would be part of that perfection. [quote] If something is perfect, there can be no imperfection in it, otherwise it would be imperfect , not perfect

"When we speak of man, we have a conception of humanity as a whole, and before applying scientific methods to, the investigation of his movement we must accept this as a physical fact. But can anyone doubt to-day that all the millions of individuals and all the innumerable types and characters constitute an entity, a unit? Though free to think and act, we are held together, like the stars in the firmament, with ties inseparable. These ties cannot be seen, but we can feel them. I cut myself in the finger, and it pains me: this finger is a part of me. I see a friend hurt, and it hurts me, too: my friend and I are one. And now I see stricken down an enemy, a lump of matter which, of all the lumps of matter in the universe, I care least for, and it still grieves me. Does this not prove that each of us is only part of a whole? " Nikola Tesla THE PROBLEM OF INCREASING HUMAN ENERGY

The suffering we have experienced is/was a part of the journey. When the community has learned that it is unnecessary and we find a way to move past it, it can be put behind us. As more people are able to understand themselves outside of our constructed social reality, and learn to appreciate the impacts that our actions have on eachother (this includes collective actions upon eachother in the forms of government/corporation/and beaurocracy in general) the goal is that we will be able to organize ourselves into a sustainable 'utopian' society. This would obviously entail the destruction of the foundations of socity as we know them. (How could systems like capitalism function forever in an acceptable manner as we can clearly see that it's power is concentrating itself in fewer and fewer hands? If it isn't already it will evolve into a system of exploitation and control, or at least to a level that we don't already see now.) Went a bit off topic, anyway, like people have said before, the suffering is not good or bad, it just is. That doesn't mean that it has to exist forever. Much of this discussion seems to have been bogged down by the terminology of PERFECTION as it was used. The state of the world as we see it now (with ample suffering) could only really be described as perfect in the sense that the world is in a constant process of changing, and this process is in itself inherintly perfect (the process being the the evolution of our universe and as such ourselves into the God state). I think it is this process that was being referred to as 'perfection', and as such suffering is not necessarily a permanent part of the 'perfection' that is life.

Without peanutbutter there would be no jelly. I like both. I have a bellybutton.

Cilosyb, This is the best post ive read, I believe it is 100% true and real, this is the experience that i am preparing for. This IS the reason DMT exists, all you need is to be open and you will have this same realisation. Awesome, purely Awesome!!! Great post, its good that you put your thoughts out there.

Cilosyb, I would like to thank you for confirming all of my thoughts. It seems around the same time of your post myself and friends came to the same understanding. It is so hard to convey this knowledge. Two thumbs up from me. Was a great read and good luck with your book. I'm sure it will help with all the suffering if more people are willing to get this knowledge "YOU ARE GOD" out there. Keep up the perfect work.

[quote:3ab9008f17="Infinite_One"] It is so hard to convey this knowledge. Two thumbs up from me. Was a great read and good luck with your book. I'm sure it will help with all the suffering if more people are willing to get this knowledge "YOU ARE GOD" out there. Keep up the perfect work.[/quote:3ab9008f17] Those who haven't had that experience will not get it from reading a book, that's for sure. But anyways one more book about the matter won't do any harm.

[quote:e85e765d0d="DMTripper"][quote:e85e765d0d="Doerak"]I will not accept that this is the Will of God.[/quote:e85e765d0d] God gave us free will and it's us that creat pain. And pain is a great teacher and it makes us strong so we can handle the power of higher dimensions. I understand it's hard to accept things like the suffering of a child. Mankind still does not see the big picture. I've seen things and I believe things are exacly how they are supposed to be. If you cause pain you will have to feel that pain later to learn and balance out the omniverse. It's called karma. And I also believe that we choose to suffer because suffering is not all bad, no matter how bad it is I've suffered and I know pain and I also know what that pain gave me. Thank you for your post cilosyb.[/quote:e85e765d0d] I strongly agree with this post depicting the fact that humanity creates all of its own suffering and pain. Of course its not Gods plan or will to have some Iraqi kid survive a bomb blast only to be proded with large needles etc. Pretty sure thats humanity and its leaders fault for the desire, creation, and use of bombs. I think of DMT ( and all psychedellics) to be a sort of view into what is possible. But dont confuse this view with reality. What I mean is you have to go trhough certain spiritual barriers to get to the next level. DMT and others like it jsut gives a you a view as to what is possible. its not really real. A metaphor would be like being a sports fan. Sure you can see just what skill is possible, what strategy is needed, and other factors that go into a great player. But that doesnt mean you can jsut go on the field and perform...simply becasue you saw what is possible and what it takes to get there. You still need to train, suffer, practice practice practice, be deafeated, take some victories etc..

Dont agree with you saying its not really real, it seems more real than here, ive came back and looked around and the world just seems so false and plastic compared to hyperspace, thats just my opinion though I truly beleive these places exist in a literal sense. I do beleive we create our own reality to an extent but find it hard to see how the iraqi kid would create the reality of needles being stuck in him without any anisetic, think its more of a collective reality created by us all and it seems to be a lot of us arent actually nice peopel, ie. politicians I also beleive a lot of them are shapeshiting reptiles but thats another thing altogether lol

That is VERY easy thing to think when the "problems" are someone else's problems.
Living in a country where bombs are actually going off outside your front door & your mother may not come back from the grocery store today. Or maybe tomorrow. I'm guessing you'd have a different outlook on this subject!! DMT or not!!
You are extremely lucky to have lived such a wonderful life, but you are insulting those who have actually lived though real problems by calling it a "cosmic joke"!!

At the same time I truly believe that we are all one mind, separated by the meat we call our bodies, like the land masses that make up the earth are all separated by oceans of water. But remove the water and all that land IS connected!! And this IS the "god" that wars have been started over.
Unfortunately, like you said a number of posts back, this idea was already conceived and tried out back in the 60's, and there was definitely more people understanding it and really trying to make it happen then, than there are now. I mean every rock & roll band at the time was preaching "love and oneness" will fix all the worlds ills, all we have to do is THINK it". The reason it didn't work is not because they didn't think hard enough, its because 90% of the population does not want to change anything!!! They just want to own more of it!!!

I'm sorry if I sound like a negative nelly, but the truth is, our existence in this world IS physical. Those of us who have found that psychedelics help to break out of that physical mindset usually want to try and bring that wonderful love and connection back to the sober world, but they just don't want it!!!
Not only that, but if you, yourself get too caught up in the psychedelic drug experience, you will be left behind. Or worse, your family will have you locked up!


I too feel like human existence is on the edge of some big change, but I think, to say it is the coming of the psychedelic mind is a very small and limited look at existence as a whole.
look at the size of the universe, we are only humans on earth. psychedelic "heads" are an insignificant tiny population of the earth, not to mention the universe as a whole. Remember, if we are all "god"...all one mind, separated by the physical...that's not just earth. Are there these same Psychedelics in the Zeta Reticuli star system too? Are you sure? I'm not!



Before you tell others that you know more than they do, you'll need to look outside your small visual field, and learn how these things relate to the real world as a whole, not only the psychedelic experience, and its small population of subscribers.
I say this from 15 years of psychedelic use and the fact that 13 years ago I thought the same way as cilosyb, (the original poster of this long thread) but I now see that psychedelics can be used as a tool for our sober living, not the other way around! I feel this is right for me, may not be right for you.

"Reality" IS an illusion, but its NOT a joke.
I think that is a cop out that makes one feel like the worlds problems are not your responsibility,
"I try to think peace into existence, so I did my part" COP OUT!!!

Sorry to go on so long! This just really rubs me the wrong way.
you guys can crucify me now.


WS

What a great post Thank you! Yes "cosmic joke" sounds nasty to many people and that's normal. Life seems very nasty sometimes. The cosmic game sounds better in the open. But when you see the truth so clearly it can look like a joke. And does for most people that have that experience. Well, hope you find your way through the cosmic game

Warrensage, [quote:e776c54f90]psychedellic "heads" are an insignificant tiny population of the earth[/quote:e776c54f90] That's so true. But does it matter if we are 'big influence generators' or 'small influence generators' ? I mean we are anyway "influence generators" thru our friends, family etc... As a psychedelics head you have a distinct 'taste' as a generator. Maybe you underestimate this influence because it does not have a direct action on bombs ... but I start thinking we may have our job to do and it is not obviously forcing people to smoke plastic-smell-like substances

I get the concept of "reality" being an illusion that we as whole are creating, we are one mind separated by flesh and "free will", or the idea that we are separate. I get that this can become clear when ones mind is under the influence of a Psychedelic drug, and extremely clear when taking DMT. But to say that our whole reason for being here on the plane of existence right now is so you can take a drug and make the whole world trip is very juvenile. (I know I'm over simplifying you statements, and I'm sorry, but that's what it seems boils down to)
I also get that when one has been turned on to the understanding of the "group mind", life seems to bend indirectly to your will and wants. Which makes you feel like people who get caught up in everyday problems and don't see how they just have to let go, are stupid and like this is all a big joke.
Now step back a bit, even from that concept.
you may eventual find that creating all of this existence, (remember now, not just earth, the whole universe) and dividing the mind into separate individual personalities takes a lot of energy. Do you really think we are doing all of this just so we can take DMT and experience the group mind for 15 minutes or even 8 hours (MAOI enabled)???

That seems like a cosmic joke to me!

you and I and the people in the amazon, and in japan and in Iceland and on every continent on this planet, and every other inhabited planet in the universe, that may or may not be out there, are here to experience HERE in the PHYSICAL plane!! I have no idea what that reason may be, but I'm pretty sure that we're not here just to cause a chemical reaction in our brains that warps the sensory input to our PHYSICAL body's.
At least I hope not, that would be awfully boring!!

These Psychedelics are tools that can open your mind to let in more, or different stimuli. Our physical eyes only see a small part of the light spectrum, same thing with our hearing. But like I said in my other post, if you let yourself get too carried away with the Psychedelic experience, your not playing a part of OUR physical existence anymore and that is where you truly are right now, in the Physical world, so use your psychedelic experiences to benefit you (and the rest of us/you) here and now!!

Once again, this is what these psych experiences have evolved into over the past 15 years...for me.
Starting at the same "psychedelics are the real world and can fix this illusion" idea, about 13 years ago.
Unfortunately we heads are a small, small population.


yup

WS

I definitely do not underestimate the influence our minds have over physical realm. Bombs are just an extreme example of a problem that we who live in the US (or other modern societies) just can not understand how devastating the effects can be. The 1/2 a second it takes to destroy a few blocks is nothing compared to the way it effects the minds of the survives for the rest of their lives, and how the actions of those survives effect the lives of the people around them, for the rest of their lives.

Extreme empathy is needed to truly begin even thinking about why we exist.


obviously we do have our part to do, but smoking "plastic-smell-like substances" is only another added viewing angle. Anything you truly effect will be here on the physical plane.
At least for the time you are here.


WS