can some one please sum this whole dispute up so i dont have to read it and i can still comment half intelligently
id be glad to throw my two cents in as i use and am familliar with mass cacti preparation. donno if thats helpful but, ive consumed a forest of achuma and pachanoi.
so will someone save me the time?

Yeah, we are arguing about what’s the most potent mescaline cacti available.

SWIM has had really bad experiences with all cacti being extremely weak. Others are telling SWIM about the potent cacti they’ve managed to get hold of. SWIM is skeptical because he’s never found a vendor with potent cacti. Even cacti from the same vendor others are claiming is potent, SWIM had and it was extremely weak.

Now one thing that is important here, the others here eat the cactus plain while SWIM extracts the mescaline from the cactus and doesn’t normally ingest it as is (but he used to eat them plain long ago and still got weak results that way). So some of the compounds present, like various MAOIs found in some cacti that might make the cacti more potent if ingested directly, might be not be present after an A/B extraction, making the effects much less potent. I’ve heard the isoquinolines in bridgessi act as MAOI compounds, and might not get extracted. I don’t know how true that is though.

SWIM has extracted something from the Peruvian Torch that is insoluble in alcohol that glows bluish green in UV light, numbs the tongue, and has effects similar to harmaline. SWIM never heard that the Peruvian Torch contained MAOIs, but yet he has this pile of crystals extracted from it that seem to have MAOI activity. These were excluded from his A/B extraction because they were not soluble in alcohol.

Anyway, the bottom line is that we are talking about which cacti is the most potent. SWIM’s experience has been that most of the cacti sold on-line is extremely weak and almost worthless. SWIM has been buying cacti for about 20 years. Others here are in stark disagreement with SWIM, claiming the opposite.

When SWIM first started buying cacti, it was almost exclusively San Pedro and he always ate it fresh. He never experienced more than a very light trip even from 36 inches of cacti. SWIM tried maybe a few dozen before he gave up on trying to ingest it as is because the effects have always been too weak for SWIM. Since then he’s been extracting the mescaline and still getting very poor results.




So, Suicybe, others here would like your input on which cacti is the most potent and your general feeling about the potency of most cacti available on the net. I’d also like to know if you’re extracting the mescaline or just eating the cactus as is, because that can make a big different in potency (from the other active chemicals that might be excluded from an extraction).

Coatl, here's another quote from Trout on Erowid backing up my idea about potency variations helping explain why even the “potent clones” SWIM tried were weak:



Note the isoquinoline is likely an MAOI and would make the cactus more potent than it would normally be based on the mescaline content.

All of the san-pedro's i had were weak. But a friend of me has some cacti and he says they're very potent. I'm gonna extract dried chips and i hope it will bring me an interesting experience.

The only way SWIM ever got a decent trip was by extraction because his cacti has always been very weak. SWIM is going to try some vendors which people here are saying have some potent cacti. Hopefully they know what they’re talking about and SWIM can finally source some good cacti.


(Coatl, as you can see SWIM isn't the only one always getting weak cacti.)

The following lists the various maximum ranges of mescaline found in various Trichocereus cacti. This information is obtained from Trout’s notes on San Pedro.



According to those figures, T. bridgesii (achuma) seems to actually contain pretty little mescaline, less than T. pachanoi (San Pedro) and T. peruvianus (Peruvian Torch). Although users claim it to be more potent. Many on the net are claiming the reason it is more potent is because it contains substantial amounts of MAOIs giving the small amount of mescaline much more kick. This could also mean it’s more dangerous to ingest. Hmmm.

As trouts says in the above post Different specimens within a species do vary but potent clones do exist.

That's one of the major points I'm trying to make... it's about finding potent clones and strains... not potent species... that just is too board.



Tell 69ron that the Bear's Achuma works really well if prepered using our peeling method... right Suicybe? You should still read the whole thread tho...

To my analysis like the above are worthless 69ron... different clones within the bridgesii species will vary widely... the only kind of analysis that makes sense is one done on exact clones.

Coatl, it's possible that the Achuma's are potent when prepared by your method because perhaps it's not mescaline, but rather another compound that is responsible for the potency that is mostly lost during extraction. SWIM felt that definitely there was more than mescaline in it that was active. Mescaline felt to SWIM like it was a minor component of the Achuma extract.

Keep in mind that SWIM has had pure mescaline quite a few times in the past and knows exactly what it feels like.

Many are speculating that Achuma has quite a lot of it’s potency attributed to MAOI activity and possibly other more potent mescaline analogs. Apparently, some Achuma that is very low in mescaline is still very potent, from what I’ve heard. An extraction designed to isolate mescaline may remove these other compounds altogether.

SWIM has never tried raw achuma, only extracts, but his friends have tried it raw. They also complained it was very week (10 grams dried did nothing).

Yes I suppose that is possible.

Next time SWIM gets the Achuma you recommended, he'll try it your way and also do an extract on the rest. That way he can see if the extraction process is indeed losing important active alkaloids. If there’s a mescaline like compound present that is getting lost, SWIM would like to know, and he’d like to figure out an extraction method that captures all of the active alkaloids present.

Hey, that looks just like the peruvianus that's growing in my front yard!

Wanna know a deep secret from the shamanic grapevine?

Currently, the lophophoras are in TEXAS!

Trust me. . .

Of course Lophophora grow in Texas!



Sounds like a good idea!

what actually makes the cactus psychedelic i would say is the synergistic effects of all alkaloids present, including mescaline. T brigdesii is known to contain peyote like alkaloids, forgive me this info is somewhere, also its known to contain things like tyramines and a suspected maoi. considering the vast difference in other psychedelics plus an maoi id say its a fair theory to attribute the alkaloids responsible to the potency of a freshly dried cacti.

a note on synergistic effects. people have consumed lost peyotes with mescaline cacti and had new and different experiences, i believe that they must all be present for a fair judgment to be made. not to say pure mesc wouldnt rock my socks, but much less work and raping of the plant perse would be needed. you should pet the cactus not dissolve it!

all of my cacti has been despined, peeled, and had the green layer sliced from the almost completely inactive core.

i have purchased 10 brigdesii from the bear and found that they indeed were potent, the only person i have ever known personally to have a bad trip from cacti got his when he exceeded the recomended 8 inch starting line. he definitely 'tripped his balls off" i have since brought cactus near him and he freaked out due to his connection with that apparently horrifying trip, beats me what he did wrong, all i can speculate is he got schooled and would fair better next time. doubt hell try again though.

with a 1 foot cutting of brigdesii i find that i get about 8 grams dried (10 if you count the tip i sever and grow)
with pachanoi i find that one needs about 3 times the weight of dried flesh for a similliar experience.

now to make sure i can gauge doses, when i get all my cacti, (last time i got 15 feet of brigdesii0 i prep it all and put all the dried skins in a bag, AND SMASH IT TO BITS!, this crumbles the brittle skin and mixes the more potent with the lesser, and all possible alkaloids are now prone to being picked due to the variety of the chips.
after testing each batch one can decipher what the experience will yield based upon the weight of the ingested flesh. i also find this very helpful when innitiaing a newb so you can preferably make them go balls to the walls, or if need be, like tomorrow initiating 2 newbs, theyll both be ingesting 4.5 g dried brigdesii.
ill post again after tomorrow and let you know how our new pscyhonauts fair, both are girls with odd odd psyches.
gotta love trip sitting, i wish i could charge an hourly fee... hah

ive heard of a shaman in training who consumed 55 grams of peruvianus
and ive also had a friend consume 45 grams pachanoi
ive tripped from ingesting 8 grams of pachanoi,

it also seems that the user must break thier head open to the cacti, each time the same dose is repeated, from my collected observations the trip is dramatically more intense, i would not dare eat the same amount i originally ate and had my first couple of times, i surely will get schooled for a long long time.

what type of dose are you looking for 69 ron, hyperspace? fractals? connectivity?
ive never gone into hyperspace via smoking dmt, and ive never had complete otherworld experiences via mescaline.
the most powerful cactus trip i had was from ingesting a plate of coatls chips and 13 hawaiian baby woodrose, this lasted a full 24 hours, things like aztec glyphs came and covered everything much like 'god code' i felt a connection with some spirit of long past and went in and out of consciousness at times.

if you are still unsuccessful i will send you my chips and well see what your report is like.
i always have a surplus.

look at your cacti list,
check the validus again, its much much like brigdesii

i have one for this purpose, and hopefully within the next 3 years ill be able to bioesse it and send some clones around.

validus brings me happiness

AWESOME posts Suicybe!



Exactly!

SWIM likes all ranges of experience.

SWIM found achuma, although extremely weak, to be very peyote like. He could feel the trip come on in waves, started with a dreamy relaxed experience, building to a stimulated psychedelic state, much in the same way as peyote.

SWIM found the Peruvian Torch to be the most mescaline like experience around.

SWIM found San Pedro to be a very smooth experience, like mescaline, but smoother.

Neither the Peruvian Torch nor the San Pedro’s came on in waves like Peyote and Achuma.

So far, the strongest cactus ingested by SWIM has been San Pedro. The Achumas were all extremely weak. The Peruvian Torchs were also all extremely weak. Only one San Pedro SWIM had wasn’t extremely weak (was ate fresh), but the rest were. When I say weak, I’m meaning 10-20 grams of dried green outer flesh did nothing, and 100 + grams were needed for mild effects.

The one most decent experience SWIM had from cacti was from 200 grams of dried green outer flesh of Peruvian Torch, extracted of course. Like all his extracted Peruvian Torch experiences, it felt like pure mescaline.


What would you say are the qualitative differences between the various cacti you've ingested?

So from your experience you consider brigdesii the most potent cacti (beside Peyote of course)?

Well, I have another point of view. Stressing increasing the potency of a cactus. So when using coatl's method, maybe the massive stress of DYING really kicks the cactus into gear. The death he gives to the cactus is a slow horrible death of dehydration. Maybe mescaline is the death and damage chemical of the cacti, like our brains dump massive amount of dmt just before dying.

EDIT: I forgot to add to the fact that they might have great strains too. They should do an extraction on cacti that are fresh and cacti that have been aged like they describe.

Maybe but it sure as hell works.

I've come across stenocereus hysterix and am quite puzzled.. Is it not there in Trout's notes & is it worth the bio-assay? I'm interested in the chemical makeup if it is available.

any +/- feed. of the cactus? Some vendors seem to pull the entheogenic use too far from what I understand.