Thought this may be of interest to some perhaps, this link has a few testimonials from people with a fair bit of experience with ayahuasca, comparing their experiences to those with iboga.

http://www.ibogahouse.co...huasca-iboga-comparison/

Just from a quick look, seems very biased, no? I mean, its expected, since the page is about iboga, but...

Like lets say, it says the iboga opens the third eye, but aya doesnt? What kind of statement is that, what kind of evidence is there?

It also says dmt is produced by pineal gland, which is purely speculation. Also ayahuasca isnt from peru, its from the amazon basin in general, extending to many countries. And strict ceremonial rules is not true in many cases, Ive been to very relaxed indigenous cerimonies without any of the typical restrictions that people know from vegetalismo.

Also A LOT of the things that say only for iboga are also there for aya, maybe the person writting just didnt experience him/herself but ive def had (messages, seeing whats best for one's future, quietting the mind, resetting, etc etc)

Ill check out the videos later.

Im very interested in iboga and will certainly take it one day but I really dont understand why this kind of attitude from whoever wrote that, as if the drugs are competing?

Hey dude, you raise good points, to be honest I wasn't really interested in the listed effects on the page, more the testimonials of the people. Such people with much experience of ayahuasca and iboga aren't so common and I thought it might be interesting to hear such comparisons from people open to both medicines. And yes the listed effects may well be bias as it is an iboga healing centre website making the comparison.

I'm sure ayahuasca has the capacity to open the third eye. Interestingly though I can't say I've ever experienced this in a noticeable way that I'm aware via ayahuasca, while each flood dose of iboga I've experienced opened up my third eye...a third eye I had previously not believed in prior to iboga...to a profound degree, I don't mean this metaphorically but literally.

I have much respect for ayahuasca and its potential for healing, I really, really do. But I think iboga doesn't get anything near enough attention or respect in certain circles for its healing potential, which I think from experience runs deeper in some ways than ayahuasca. I feel, for some people at least, that they could gain a benefit from iboga that no amount of ayahuasca drinking could give them. A bias tone certainly isn't required and is regrettable; however I don't think the testimonials of the people themselves have any axe to grind and may be of interest to those who have experience of ayahausca but not of iboga.

I have definatly experienced most of those things with ayahuasca.

I have had strong activations with ayahuasca that never really subsided ever. The only way I can explain it is some kind of third eye awakening. Things will happen to me now randomly that never went on before ayahuasca. I lay down and have visions, spirits comming in dreams etc..I can walk into a forest and feel the resonance deeper than I ever could..like my nervous system just tunes in. Maybe this has something to do with the way harmine incalates into the DNA..maybe not I dunno I just know that something happened.

I have also had strong effects for many days after ayahuasca where it was as if I never fully came down from the medicine..

I have experienced what I can only call past lives with ayahuasca..I have met my higher self..I have experienced myself through the lives of my ancestors all the way through to myself reincarnating as my children..

I know that ayauhasca and also analogue brews have changed something inside of me permnaently and opened me up to some higher spititual reality.

I dunno about iboga because I have never taken it. I was planning on working with it soon but now that there does not seem to be any sustainable iboga on the market I guess that is out of the question..unless there is some farmed iboga available that is sustainable..

Alot of curranderos and ayahuasca centers like blue morpho use tabernaemontana sanaho in all the brews they drink as well so I wonder how that differs..I will know soon enough anyway..

I find it very interesting that one Sacred Medicine is described as having a greater capacity to "open the third eye" and trigger other such psychic phenomenon. To a sensitive human being... a couple hits of Ganja can do the trick but on a much milder scale and briefer duration.

Having never taken Iboga... much of my assessment is speculative and based on the absence of the experience, rather than the knowledge of the experience. But my respect for this plant is immense. My point? I feel that any and all of the family of entheogens could certainly shift the consciousness of the imbiber, enough to manifest such realizations. That being said, some seem to have greater speed and get the job done far more thoroughly and intensely.

I suggest that such levels of being are not JUST the particular chemical reaction within our brains, these higher states are part of our species interior nature and quite accessible through many routes and gifted through many psychedelic substances. For many of us, it is becoming more and more readily perceivable in "normal" states of mind (un-enhanced by the use of substances).

I've heard similar musings from proponents of Ayahuasca, who claim that psilocybin, mescaline and LSD cannot activate awareness to the degree that DMT can... or trigger the expansion of the crown center, into states of Samadhi or "cosmic consciousness". Although, it might be better to phrase such awakenings as, the immersion into the Grid of the One? That's what it feels like in my dream.

But can't each psychedelic aid in our own unique awakening? Many believe that there is a hierarchy of sorts. A veritable who's on top, type of pharmacological pyramid. I find this supposition to be mostly incorrect, from my own experiences. Seems like alot is based on the set and setting, one's state of mental focus, calmness and willingness to embrace the death of one's ego. Isn't it often the interaction or interphase of the subjective witness, to a large degree? The dreamer and his/her capacity to open to these forces?

Perhaps it is true for some and not others? I am of the opinion, that all of the major psychedelics can and do trigger the expansion of awareness and the activation of the primary energy centers, the psychic fulcrums aligned within our spinal ascension and into the brain (and beyond these exterior points, into subtler realms of being).


I feel that the witnessing of the Ajna (or sixth chakra), is naturally and organically accessible to all human beings. "The 3rd Eye" or "All Seeing Eye", is a gateway or sorts and acts as a lens, by which we perceive of alternate frequencies of conscious existence and levels of mind. Certainly, DMT and the others do indeed trigger it's full activation or if you will, it's opening. :idea:

I am curious, Bancopuma, in what way is Iboga more able to more facilitate this shift in your awareness? And does this Medicine nourish the blooming of your crown center? The 7th chakra or Sahasrara (Thousand Petaled Lotus). Many voyagers into DMT usage speak of the "Chrysanthemum". Does anyone else notice this brilliant unfolding, whilst peaking on an entheogen? Or are there other symbols, visions or signals, which are noticed from the specific molecules being interacted with?

For myself, the blossoming of this Grid consciousness, is an indication that I am tuning into the state whereby my awareness blooms exponentially and my individuality is shifting and merging within the Unified Field of Being. Or what some choose to call, "The Godhead". LSD, psilocybin, mescaline and DMT do this within my own Spirit journeys (and this parallels the Yogic system and bridges my understanding of some of these planes of consciousness, which I've perceived, quite seamlessly).

Please elucidate further on some of the unique characteristics of the Iboga experience. Or are they universal? Tnanx!

I think that harmala alkaloids in high doses could induce an experience simmilar to what iboga-alkaloids would do. But such a brew would be very heavy and intense compared to the average ayahuasca brew, taken here in the west or in communities such as the santo-daime.

The fact that ayahuasca is often taken with some admixture, that there are numerous admixtures and therefore numerous, very different kind of brews, makes it hard to compare ayahuasca and iboga. Most of the time, ayahuasca is taken with a DMT-containing plant, (in santo-daime, uno de vegetal and western settings) wich has a profound impact on the effects of the brew.

Potentially though, i think that among all the traditional brews existing, there are at least some that will have simmilar effects as a large amount of iboga. But because those brews will also be a lot heavier, both physically and psychologically, those brews would never gain the same popularity outside the amazonian region.

As bancopuma has said in earlier posts: even between the various forms of iboga (rootbark, pure ibogaine, TA extracts, etc), there are differences.
Therefore it doesn´t make sense to take comparisons too far.

I think it´s the TYPE of experience that can be simmilar. But only with amounts of harmala´s that exceed those of the average brew by far. I think you should probably take at least more than 100 grams of caapi to get iboga-like effects.

Jamie recently made a post about an ayahuasca experience (the 'clinic' thread), that sounded in many ways very simmilar to an iboga-experience, probably because of a batch of caapi that had an abnormal amount of harmala´s in it. But beside harmala´s, he had also taken chaliponga and some mimose, so the experience must also have had differences from an average iboga-journey.

Iboga-like effects are absolutely absent from the average ayahuasca brew, just like a meal with normal amounts of nutmeg in it is not psycho-active. The iboga-like effects of harmala´s are hidden to the public because they only occur when amounts are taken that are way above what´s needed for full MAO-inhibition.

So saying that the two don´t compare, based on experiences with an ordinary ayahuasca brew is like saying that in your experience nutmeg isn´t psycho-active because you´ve had so many meals with nutmeg in it.

DMT, mescaline and psilocin are classic hallucinogens. They all have the same KIND of effects, although they´re not identical.

Harmala´s and iboga-alkaloids are also substances of the same category.
This category DOES indeed have a greater capacity for opening the mind, than the classic hallucinogen.

Why?

Well, when you take a classic hallucinogen like DMT, you can break through to another realm because your brain get´s overloaded with psychedelic input. But in a sense it´s still the same brain that is wired to function in consensus reality.
On iboga, you go one step further and the parts of your brain that cling-on to consensus reality are also being shut-down....it´s not a refined sort of experience...it´s raw and animalistic. It´s more primal than any classic psychedelic experience will ever be, because on DMT, psilocin or mescaline, your brain still clings-on to that 'higher' part of itself.
Iboga is not beautifull like DMT can be....because on iboga you no longer CARE about things like beauty, elegance or sensuality. On DMT it´s still impossible not to care.

Iboga is like an elevator that goes straight down to the foundations of existence...from the palace with it´s crystal chandeliers, it´s gold and marble, to the basement where the floor is dirty and where all the old rubbish is stored, everyone´s forgotten about.

From personal experience, there is a point where harmalas crap out and become unbearable at certain high doses that I would not want to exceed ever again.

Iboga easily goes past what harmalas are capable and lasts significantly longer. No need to write a whole page about it.

there are a lot of factors. What is ingested before the vine makes a big difference I find..you also get used to larger and larger vine doses. If you are not basically leaving your body completely and entering into the spirit world and going on journies there than your not hitting the deeper vine space. You cant even stand up barely on these doses and if you do it is like your soul just slips back out of the body. Most people here probly have no idea of how deep harmalas can take a person..and if you dont drink often the ataxia and nausea can be alot more alarming than when you are more acustomed. When you dose like this, at least I find you are not super keen on going right back there. Sure you might want to drink again but not like that. After a brew that contains a dose of vine like that the last thing I feel like doing is goin back there. I just have no need to. The effects of vine doses like that alone can last 24 hours or more..the afterglow goes for weeks and weeks it seems. This is not like a typical dose of pharmahuasca or aya or rue and mimosa that we are all using here often. It is like something else altogether.

There can be alot of sickness at these doses though, nausea and shitting. It is not called the purge for nothing..I dunno about how the sickness compares with iboga though..I dont even really care to compare these things.

I think that the whole page on that iboga house site is somewhat stupid. Is is really necessary to have an ayahuasca vs iboga page?

he also claims the only method out there for having a psych spiritual journey is with iboga. No other plant or method will give someone a psycho spirital journey.

Of course he probly never drank ayahuasca, ate mushrooms, cacti, smoked salvia or DMT etc..he is bwiti and uses iboga. I am sure some ayahuasca curranderos will say that ayahuasca is the only way someone can have a psycho spiritual journey.

Hey peeps, apologies if I seemed to have ignited an "Iboga Vs. Ayahuasca...ENDGAME!!!" vibe, so not my intention or desire at all! Was hoping for a little dialogue maybe but not really in this vein. I'm also not setting out to pimp out iboga.

One thing to remember is that we are all individuals and react differently to things, so to a lesser of greater extent, such perceptions are going to be subjective. I have tried many, many things, but it was among the organic psychedelics that I knew I'd found the true treasures. I first encountered ayahuasca in the Peruvian Amazon, and knew I'd found something very special. I have a very special affinity with mushrooms. Only two weeks ago now I had my first true and earth shattering breakthrough with DMT that has opened me up to possibilities and vistas I could never have imagined or conceived of before. But my first encounter with iboga still rates as one of my most profound and incredible life experiences...and it's not like I've experienced a void of amazing life experiences!

I must remark though that for me, iboga is totally unique, in my experience at least. Yes there are similarities between it and harmalas, but iboga took me far beyond harmalas have ever taken me by a pretty profound margin. And yes the different preparations do vary, root bark, TA, ibogaine, but they still all very much share that unique and distinctive signature. Also mr polytrip while I did find some common terrain in jamie's "in clinic" high dose caapi experience, it still sounded like a pretty different beast to me... I think this may be down to our own subjective experiences with iboga. A while back when you were describing the experience of a flood, you described what to me sounded like a delirium like state where you found it hard to tell the difference between what was real and what were the hallucinations. Iboga is nothing like this for me. It is more anti-delirium for me if anything. Even during the peak of my first encounter, very powerful visions were taking place behind closed eye lids, my third eye was open, I could see without the use of my eyes, furniture in the room was levitating and then flying out of the window and there were amazing and bizarre distortions of things in the room I could perceive with my eyes shut...at all times I knew that I had consumed iboga and could talk rationally to the guy sitting for me at anytime, and I never felt any fear or anxiety...far from it, I was numb to these feelings and all desires. I think the iboga was doing this so it can work on me, distraction free. Iboga is consumed as a root bark; some people consider it to work on the root of problems being a root. Make of that what you may.

However, I think in some ways I may be more hard headed than some. jamie it sounds like you have a very profound and deep relationship with ayahuasca, that's great! I can't say my relationship is anything near as deep with it, but I still have a serious respect for it and count myself very lucky I got to experience it. I never believed in third eyes before iboga...I'm afraid I kinda felt it was kinda new agey, esoteric twoddle. Perhaps some are more hard headed than others, and need a harder knock to open them up! One's initiation with iboga by one tribe is known as "breaking open the head". This is what iboga did for me in that way, and experiencing vividly my third eye opening and being able to see without the use of my eyes. I would have never ever thought this was possible...but it happened. This might sound I'm a bit crazy to some; I guess I can only say I trust my judgement in these matters.

The bias tone of that iboga webpage is regrettable, I don't like the way they've set out the lists the way they have. It wasn't these I thought were of value or interest though, more the testimonials of those people who are experienced with ayahuasca, making comparisons with iboga. I thought these may perhaps be of interest to some, as people with experience of both aren't exactly ten a penny! I guess this website has used ayahuasca as a comparison as there is much more awareness of it, and this awarness is ever spreading, while iboga remains very much more on the periphery, despite its potential. Also people aware of ayahuasca in the first place may be more open to iboga perhaps. They are both powerful healing plants for sure, and I think they have a lot more parallels than differences, but that these differences should be embraced and celebrated.

it seems like plants with iboga alkaloids whenever present are used medicinally. Amazonians will use uchu sanango and bechete..star jasmine while containing low ammounts is apparently used in TCM for any kind of energy blockage..natives in australia use tabernaemontana orientalis for healing ulcers and other things, and it seems high is iboga alks so who knows what else they might use it for.

The most interesting thing to me, is that uchu sanago seems to be used in the amazon to basically flood the system just like the bwiti do with iboga..they dont always do it this way, but when you do a uchu sanango diet you drink the stuff for days, often eating little to nothing. You just sit in your tambo off away from everyone else and you are served this every day. There are not too many reports out there about this but there are some and the effects of a sanango diet are said to build up within a day or 2 and some people experience a deep hypnogogic state that can last for days where they experience all kinds of insights into their life etc..it does sound alot like an iboga trip, except with uchu sanango they ingest it in smaller ammounts building up slowly as it can last a long time.

When brewed into ayahuasca I think they use much less.

I have also read of sanango ceremonies where large doses are taken all at once but this is something lacking in information. The head spirit of uchu sanango is said to be an old man with a beard and it apparently is a very powerful medicine that opens the heart chakra.

The whole idea of people basically flooding on this stuff, and bechete in the amazon is interesting. I will have some tabernaemontana sananho soon, but the stem bark not rootbark. I am going to experiment with it alone and with ayahuasca and then try some rootbark. Voacanga africana interests me as well, and iboga of course.

I have often thought now that this could be why people who go to blue morpho say that place is like no other..their ayahuasca is much more than just caapi and psychotria. They do serious uchu sanango diets there, they put it in all the ayahuasca along with a whole bunch of other tree barks..

be careful though! dont take my word here about flooding with this stuff..I read that a while back in a journal about some guys sanango diet and I cant find the link anymore..but the report did sound alot like iboga reports..and I have read of people going for much much longer than 5 hours on this stuff when it is consumed over some days..

Uchu sanango contains some different alkaloids from iboga though..coronaridine is a main alkaloid in the rootbark, and stembark I am assuming and does seem to share similar healing properties to ibogaine, but it may not be psychedelic..other iboga alkaloids in the sanango probably produce the visions but not a whole lot is known about it.

Have you worked with uchu sanango at all yet kambo? If so how is it?

Well, as i said: it doesn´t make sense to take comparisons too far. The only point i wanted to make is that, like classic hallucinogens are all simmilar in some sense, even though they may differ hugely...like LSD and DMT are very different but yet very simmilar in some way because they fall into the same category of experience...i think that iboga and harmala´s are in the same way different but simmilar.

I don´t have experience with those extremely high doses of harmala´s myself, so it´s been a bit of a speculation from me based on reports like jamie´s.

It´s useless to say that one thing is better than another, but to me it´s fascinating to realise that there are so many things i haven´t experienced yet...that there may be 'medicines' out there that could open something that´s totally new to me. There may be doors that even iboga or DMT haven´t opened yet, but maybe a brew with sanangho could open.

So in a sense i was not just speculating, but also expressing something of a desire. I think/expect/hope that there are some amazonian 'secrets' ou there that could take me to new places, further than what DMT can do and maybe even iboga.

An iboga vs aya endgame would make no sense to me, but i do think that we can always push the borders some more and that means leaving familiar grounds...so that could even mean 'leaving' DMT, ayahuasca or iboga.

I get what you're saying Mr polytrip. And I do like the way you describe how iboga works on the mind compared to the classic psychedelics.

I've got to say I'm fascinated by this Uchu Sananho aka Tabernaemontana sananho and how it used by itself and alongside ayahuasca. Would definitely be very interested in experiencing this one day. Also interesting that the inner root bark is used, just like iboga. South America began to split from Africa around the late Paleozoic/early Mesozoic era, around 225 million years ago, when the supercontinent Pangaea began to drift apart. So this is why they are related I guess and will share a common ancestry if you go way, way back.

I have spoken to one or two ibogaine treatment providers and iboga healers and the leader of an ibogaine based church, and had personal dealings with one 'healer' myself. A theme that seemed to crop up among these iboga folk was ego and rivalries. There seemed to be competition between some of these people or ngangas on who had the most powerful healing abilities etc, and the guy I encountered had a massive ego himself, I would have thought iboga would have been very anti this kind of behaviour, but it leaves your free will intact and so human nature can intervene. I'm not saying that this is common by any means, but it does seem to be a factor to some degree.

well..I knew just the videos even gave me weird vibes about this guy...

http://eboka.info/index.php?topic=394.0

Hmmm yeah it's stuff like this that makes me think that people may benefit more from seeking out a trusted friend or family member as a sitter, as oppose to forking out vast sums to have someone claiming to be a shaman or nganga of questionable conduct or honour sit for them. This view is also based on personal experience.

Back to the OP, I'd say more like KIAP, if you're fortunate enough to experiment both, you really think you're blessed to have access to both of their language.

But all these plants, alcaloids, compounds, have their own language which tries to interact with you, it's not their fault if you don't understand them, you called them.

I was interested to see the female that was on u tube describe Ayahuasca as feminine, and nice, useful, but not necessarily as direct and honest as iboga. Maybe she has a point. I haven't tried iboga, so i can't say. But there is a lot of fussing on these forums i noticed. Could this be the doing of the Ayahuasca mind?

I would not put much faith in that site christian. For every one of those reports they could have 5 horrible reports from people who hated that shaman, did not agree with this comparison etc..

Obviously this guy wants to make money and has left a trail of pissed off people in his wake..he is going to put videos on his site that are going to favor his own bias and make him look good reguardless of how true or not true it all is.