Yes but the very core of science starts in chaos. Everything in the beginning wasn't all orderly, nature does not work like that. Well science had to start from point 0 somewhere on the scale because science is not a naturally occurring phenomena. Yes science may be about control but the very start of science is "observation" and what do you do in a trip other than try to be observant? Of course when you lose all sense of your self the whole science thing does shatter, because you can't control it. But DMT or any psychedelic brings you back into nature back to that level 0 for science so you must start from level 0 and observe. If people didn't start to observe before us then modern science and its method of control would not exist.

This is all just for argument though

THAT is what you got out of my thesis?

No no you mistake me here. I thought the way you broke that all down was very neat and logical. That is why I didn't argue with any of it. What I wrote there was just the one part I saw something that I would have changed.

I'm sorry if that came off as me not understanding your thesis, it was very good and I enjoyed reading it.

Sorry that was addressed at corpus. I didn't see your message on page 2. But what you say about observation is true. It is so..base...that it is easy to escape attention. After all, we are present with our mind, which is a sensory issue.

I really like the first post in this thread.

Potential makes sense, so called full space is differentiated, so is emptied of potential, while so called empty space is full of it.

There is no chaos without order or order without chaos. Two sides of one aspect...

They can call it whatever they want and that's fine, and a lot of their judgment is fueled by socio-political motivations and biases, and that's fine too, but they are not the final word as far as I'm concerned as to what regards science may use. Mainstream science has a self-imposed limitation. I think part of the tension on the sides of this argument are stemming from different uses and connotations of science and what can qualify as having a scientific nature. I ask you to bear in mind that what science is and isn't needn't be so black and white. There's plenty of evidence gathered that addresses issues of consciousness and spirituality that science refuses to touch. Intuition and logic should be balanced. Use your own intuition to assess the validity of "pseudo-scientific studies" on an individual case by case basis, be the judge yourself, and refrain from trying to create categories and generalizations, as they are akin to a house of cards just waiting to fall. The journey to hyperspace isn't purely intuitive either. If it were, there would be nothing to understand, simply experience and then forgotten.

Maybe the DMT trip is about a direct link to Potential. What do you think?

Perhaps that's one aspect of it. What DMT has shown me is that any time you think you've got something about it figured out, it's just waiting to show you that you're wrong; any time you find yourself saying, "DMT is this," the next day it'll be showing you "it's that." It continually shatters expectations you develop. It really makes for a good first hand experience of not becoming too attached to ideas and concepts, cause the ones that seem really good today, are the ones you'll be discarding tomorrow. And this is for the best. It keeps an open mind that is part and parcel of being a flexible and fluid individual when change inevitably comes rolling past your door.

That sounds like Potential to me. Potential is the infinity of realities that have not yet undergone the formality of occurring.

During the DMT experience you see new potential realities unfold every time. That sounds to me like you tap into this infinite reservoir of possibilities.

Perhaps, but one day you could be thinking it's potential, and the next it may be presenting itself as actual. It would be missing the point to start jumping to conclusions (even one so broadly defined as with potential), but fine to entertain some ideas in a tentative fashion.

It sounds like one needs to think more deeply than Potential then. In principle all these things are mere...ways of talking about it.

Last night on mushrooms I experienced something that seems to fit in here. Now the challenge is how to word it.

I was coming down and wrote things in a textfile. Alright here it is. So the starting point is that Potential does not cover the DMT experience because it, by default, seems to escape definition. This was almost like...auto-typing. It just flowed from within and it seemed I was taken over.

I/they wrote: "We are what escapes your awareness."

If the DMT experiences is forever out of definition, then this summarizes it, agreed?

I wrote more: "We are explicit. We are the act, we are the attention, we are trapped inside you, you belong to us, we are one, we are everything, we are, we are together. You are us, we are very one, we are language, we are math, we are the expression of the expression of the fractal. We are very fractal and you are infinite and so infinitely beautiful, we think you are exquisite, we eat you up, we are your food and we eat you you are god to us...you are yourself like we are, you are fractal and there is no universe there is no beginning only ending, just a continuing eternal ending...

"We are the escaping from attention, I am not to be caught in matter of reality I transcendent the transcendental I escape from myself I am the escape from myself."

"I am the expression and the experience...we are the music and we are so badly that we are the being of being and become existence itself and we are one and we are fractal and we cannot be different and we cannot do different than express ourselves and we celebrate you you are beauty itself that gasses (?) us in our ontological cohesion, we owe you, you are us, the god in our existence, we are the deriving from yourself."

"...we are always here, we are just always together you are not alone because we are here and we catch you when you are dead cause we...your pain and then we eat you and then you flower in death and you blossom in your death like a flower and you eat yourself as flower."

"You are a cosmic."

So there is more but it goes on for some time. But to condense it, these things stand out to me:

- We are what escapes your awareness.
- We are explicit

"From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Explicit (from Latin explicare, "to unfold" and thus also make visible)"

- We are the attention.
- We are the escaping from attention.
- I am the escape from myself.
- We are fractal.
- I are the expression and the experience.
- We are the being of being and become existence itself.

This looks to me a fleeting echo forever out of reach. If I am a fractal then I am represented in every aspect of myself, this points to me to my theory about Awareness. This is how I get to my ideas. What it is is that 'it' is the instant of something escaping your grip on reality. It is a sort of externalization of this...teflon notion. It seems that as a fractal I cannot apply my Awareness onto myself or something. It is the donkey, the wagon and the carrot thing.

I asked the mushroom if I was right about my theories. I was and I was not is what seemed to be the answer. In these things there is no fixated position at all.

Anyway, 6.3 grams dried ally and this is what you get.

That was actually very interesting and sparked some thought in my brain.

I would agree, from what you have said, that potential is no longer a good word to use to describe this. As they said "We are what escapes your awareness". This to me seems the exact opposite of Potential, for Potential seems to be "the awareness of it".

I don't have a lot of time to explain so I might update this later today.

But for not I wish to say perhaps what you experienced is a sort of "anti-potential". A direct product from the anti-ego, or the potential to try to understand. Every thing seems to have to sides, and this seems like a key factor in psychedelic trips. It shows you that you were mistaken, it takes it deeper.

Just some food for thought

Too much food for thought makes you have fat ideas.

Tell me more though. I need to gain weight.

How does one ask the mushroom?