I haven't read Castaneda, but you are deviating from the subject a bit. I also happen to think that shared dream-state is a possibility, and that consciousness is universal. What I'm a bit more doubtful of is the possibility of "supernatural" powers in the context of the material realm.

probably fake.

Spartan, I think maybe you are reading too much into my words. The first post was joedirt asking for opinions about the video. I answered with questions that popped up into my mind when reading that.

In any case, I have felt several times in life that when one is really "in tune" with oneself, its like all the different energies are aligned to the given objective. And when I say aligned, I mean for example, when you are on a swing, and you swing your legs at the right frequency to increase your movement, like resonance.

I feel in certain moments of my life, through a certain attitude or through doing some kind of physical work where I needed to be conscious, I was able to see that potential in me. It's about using one's energy efficiently, with least resistence, listening to one's own rhythm and to one's innate potentials (and being conscious of one's limits). Often I think it happens that, say, you are trying to do some movement in whatever challenging physical activity you do, if all your parts are not working in coherence with each other, you're much more likely bound to fail (or not do it as good as you could)

I think in the existential/psychological/intellectual/emotional realms, its the same, there's also a way to be more in tune with oneself, to connect the different realms of manifestation of one's Being, and act in a conscious efficient way.

I think this is a process that lasts a lifetime. I also think it's something that there are techniques that can help one being more aware, and I think arts like all this Chi work, or meditation, yoga, indigenous practices, etc (and even, often in a non-conscious way, but different modern endeavours like some extreme sports and so on) work toward that end. I also know (and have seen personally) people that are very developed generally, but also people that were developed in one aspect but very undeveloped in another. I see myself as just a beginner in this path, and I have my own traits that are the base with which I have to work on. I have my whole life ahead of me and I cant judge other people because if I see a fault in them, maybe its something I can serve as a mirror to help myself grow, or maybe they have another good potential or development in an area I dont have, etc.. So I can just try to see where I can improve myself and if I see the fault in one specific aspect in someone else, try to point it out to them in a constructive way (if I feel its good to express it openly), but not identify the person with their actions.

I can imagine that some people that are probably unknown to the general public, have developed themselves to such a level that some very very special things can be done. I think whatever special thing that can be done is probably explainable by some known or unknown pattern or law under which our reality works (explainable in an absolute sense, not necessarily to our mortal minds).

But I also know there are a lot of fake gurus out there, deluded people, etc and so on. So what do I personally do? Try to, in my situation, keep in this path with the tools I have acquired and methods ive learned, and keep open to learning new ones, but at the same time questioning every part of the process, including (and specially) myself, so that whatever I reach comes out of thorough understanding and not just a blind belief.

I would love to practice some martial arts but Im not living next to friends who do it at the moment, and I cannot afford books or some school. Looking on the internet would result in a billion of conflicting websites that I have at the moment no reference to base myself on.

And then comes the question: Why Chi work and not something else? Until the day I feel really connected to one particular path (if i ever do), I will just keep being open to the different ways, but again, not in a loose-minded ways.

I had the feeling you and joedirt were somehow projecting a certain closed minded materialism in my words, because of other people youve met or other discussions youve had, but I dont think that is what im giving you guys from how I use my words.. I think we can all learn from each other's questions and knowledge and way of looking at this (or any) particular phenomenon

So what would it take to for you or endlessness to gather an interest in something like this?

I think we'd all agree that even if we had video footage of the monk standing 2 feet away and shoot the guy across the room with 1000 people watching we'd still be skeptical. I mean hollywood has done far better! For me seeing something in video by people that are trustable does pick up my interest....but no I don't form beliefs about it. I would however like to go investigate this for myself. I spent a few hours watching and reading up on it, and I think there may be more to it. I'll reserve final judgement until I can witness it in person

So how frustrating would it be if you, or any other skeptic actual went to see this and it turned out to be real? Would you tell anyone? I'm not sure I would. I mean the Nexus used to be on of the more open minded forums out there, but I can state pretty certainly I would never share it here... I mean christ we all know that if you can't find a link to a peer reviewed paper then it's not real. None of our most treasured memories or the most anomalous things we've ever seen are even worth sharing here...without a peer reviewed link of course. Nevermind if you've actaully read the link and not just the abstract.

I may been guilty here. I did think you were being a little standoffish, but we do have to realize that it's hard to show emotion, or lack there of, with pure text sometimes.

I apologize for taking your words as stand offish is that's not the intent you intended.

Peace

What about hypnosis, if you don't believe in it while getting hypnotized and just don't allow yourself to have a certain suggestibility level for it to succeed you can claim its all a hoax because you have to believe in it, or be "brainwashed" by it in order for it to work. Ie if youre hardcore sceptic how do you ever get convinced that hypnotized people are not really actors, if you yourself while attempting to get hypnotized sitting there in front of some "charlatan" and thinking about what a load of crap all this you're likely to not experience it.

I can see how it might not be even testable on skeptics vs believers (ie control vs treatment) IF this phenomena were real.

You might be surprised to discover that much of hypnotism IS a load of crap and charlatanism (although it is true that some people can sometimes be "hypnotized" and show a demonstrable change on EEG). It's well known among magicians and stage performers, for example, that stage hypnotism in fact is a display of human COOPERATION: the hypnotist showman's task is to find a few people who will in fact "play along." Then, when they, oh, act like they're rowing a boat in a storm or something, they're just doing it because "they're supposed to be hypnotized" and so they act as they're expected to act.

Yup, believe it or not, that's what's actually happening in stage hypnotism shows.

Wikipedia offers a balanced description of Stage Hypnotism.

Not coming to dispel Qi, just here to put some food for thought on the table;

Biological science has not yet uncovered anything like Qi within humans, other animals or plants. Well-understood physical and chemical processes, the same that occurs in all materials whether dead or alive, are sufficient to account for just about any of the observed interactions between various parts of living organisms.

Modern equipment in physics laboratories have sensetive detectors capable of detecting various kinds of very subtle radiation of very low intensity. Living organisms do not emit any unique radiation that can be detected by our best instruments. Now, one may of course argue that the instruments just isn't sensitive enough to pick up Qi, but this is a long shot. If the effects are so significant as usually claimed as well as discussed here, there is no good reason for why it shouldn't be detectable with the incredible technology we have today.

The thing with Qi is that is not just a metaphysical claim about something that lies completely outside the scope of material reality (and thus science), but it concerns concrete claims about how the material universe works, or at least how Qi affects and interacts with the material universe. This is why it should readily be detectable when it is said to have such significant effects.

Surveying all the claims and alleged effects of Qi, there is no evidence to consistently back it up, and none of it can't be understood by processes and phenomena not attributed to Qi. Qi theory states that the function of the human body is based on a system of energy that circulates throughout the body and all other systems and integrates with them all, though no evidence for such a system exists. If it does exist, which seems unlikely, and somehow has avoided discovery despite quite the effort to find it, then it would seem logical that there are some large and sweeping gaps in our knowledge of human physiology every time we examined a system that supposedly interacted with Qi. Though there is certainly much we don't know about human physiology, none of these are attributed to the systems that supposedly interact with Qi.

While modern medicine without doubt has its serious big flaws that should be considered and fixed, it is nevertheless important to examine any body of knowledge criticially - especially when it comes to healthcare.

Just my two cents, with no intention of debunking Qi or forcing you to change your minds, just putting some critical thoughts out there. Please don't let it rub you the wrong way =)

Stay safe and well people.
Peace

I agree with a lot of this. The thing about Qi is that it DOES have to interact with matter. Thus even if the Qi energy it self is undetectable via modern instrumentation the force that is exerted would not be. So a master should very easily be able to walk up to a sensor and demonstrate a measurable force without touching the device. I have not seen any evidence that this has been done....but looking at some of the Qi claims and videos there are a handful that seem compelling (as compelling as video evidence can be). I'm also starting to understand why such a master might chose not to do this for science...

Like I said I'll reserve final judgement until I can see it with my own eyes.

Peace

how many people here have actaully practiced martial arts? I did taekwondo alot years back and went to lots of competitions..and I have seen some unbelievable things.

I have personally broken bricks with my hands and boards etc..but then I have seen other masters who have been practicing for like 30 years, alot of them from korea do things I cant imagine. I have seen these guys break sets of bricks all stacked upon each other that I would have to take a sledgehammer to..and these are NOT big guys. Most people who have done this stuff will tell you that it has nothing at all to do with how strong you are, but in how quick you are etc..but I cant help but wonder if something else is going on as well.

My point is that personally I just cant tell..is it all technique..or incorperation of some technique we dont really understand yet? Who knows.

I studied for years in the 70's and 80's with Hidy Ochiai who is acknowledged by many martial artists as a genuine master. He was sent at 7 years old to a martial arts "monastery" in the Zen arts tradition, in Okinawa, and lived there until adulthood--when his master told him to go to America to teach. He has quite obviously delved deeply into meditation (and in fact instructed me personally in Zen meditation, and serves as a lecturer at SUNY colleges in philosophy/Zen). He will discuss chi at length, and certainly credits the many simply STUNNING physical feats he performs.

I've seen him handle large, tough, capable men like they were dolls (and he is no taller than 5'3" and weighs no more than 120 lbs). As a younger man I simply can't IMAGINE him failing to instantly incapacitate ANYONE (one at a time, or in groups!). He once defended himself against a sword attack--instantly disabling his attacker--while earning a large scar almost completely encircling his waist, as he spun into his attacker. Another time he successfully defended himself and others against a gang attack, again instantly disabling multiple experienced attackers.

But nothing he demonstrated, IMO, wouldn't be explainable by a lifetime of deeply dedicated learning and practice. His ability to "read" people, and interact physically with people with unimaginably subtle dexterity, could APPEAR virtually "supernatural." But IMO from observing and knowing him, his "powers" are simply the work of the human mind and body as a manifestation of capable/insightful instruction and relentless training.

BTW: He is the guy who taught Bruce Lee how to use the Nunchaku.

Well, I guess we are sharing the same opinion, or pretty close, then.

I never said I am not interested. I have indeed done a bit of research on the subject after having seen those videos (actually, I had done a bit of research in the past also).

What I'm saying is that there isn't enough evidence for me to believe it. But I would be more than glad to incorporate it in my worldview if:
-There was a way to reapeat the experience on people who weren't "students" of this art and make it be reported by multiple, varied sources.
-If I was to experience it myself.

And in any ways I would have to ask myself if their was a possibility for the people who experienced or observed it to be wrong or misinterpret what happened, or ask myself if what I experienced was truly the consequences of such powers or maybe something else. That would help me define with how much faith I put in those experiences or reviews.

I apply the same process to all information, be it scientific, spiritual, or anything else. Information that isn't "proved" isn't rejected, it is simply not believed in. And most information that passes is not 100% believed either.

lovely topic

can someone just note the attributes of qi?
how about this:

1 it is said to be everywhere
2 it is said to be energy
3 it is said to follow mind (yi)

Examine these in light of the arguments and concepts.

if it isn't directed by yi, then it isn't qi
the yi constantly directs it, so how can yi detect it? (it can't)
it is even taught that qi cannot be felt, seen or heard

Through focusing the mind (yi) it can be focused to greater degrees
but it will not focus itself

qi is non-physical, it is not the ability to do work, is not subject to entropy, has no caloric value etc

qi is perhaps analogous to quanta
how would you look for the quantum value of mind energy intent?
how would you measure the difference between full attention and partial attention?
can you invent an intent detector?

points in a constellation
attempting to step outside of it
to see the picture they comprise
the joke perhaps too subtle
for words to encompass

See my post above. If Qi can interact with physical objects then it can be measured. If you have a pressure sensor then a master should be able to use his Qi to apply pressure to the sensor in the same fashion he is able to throw people around.

Interesting link to some really amazing people...make sure you make it to the second page!

http://www.cracked.com/a...mutant-superpowers.html

Subtle and polite, but you're not fooling anyone.

Reading through the Spirituality and Mysticism forums, I noticed some of your other recent posts. Why do you even post in these forums? (Spirituality and Mysticism) Do you think you're making some kind of difference or getting people to reconsider their beliefs through your appeal to "critical thinking" and materialist-reductionist point of view?

Spiritual-oriented people don't care if the energies and forces they work with can't be proven with scientific instruments, they know it's real because they feel it and it works.

Here's another interesting vid sure to intrigue. We once again have a scientist on site who can make no claims for the possibility of what's going on. Shaolin Monk Uses Chi to Drill His Head?

In response to some of Citta's questions, I think Qi is probably somehow akin to dark matter (not saying it is dark matter/energy, just that it may be similar ontologically). We don't have instruments to measure it directly, but we can infer its presence based on its interaction with matter. Of course as joedirt points out, it should be relatively simple to measure this physical interaction. We must remember that the arts that deal with qi have been mystery societies for hundreds to thousands of years for a reason. They didn't all of a sudden start to lay low when science came on the scene to try and prove/disprove it to them. People always say, if it were real there should be some kind of evidence, and the fact remains that there's evidence abound that many just choose to ignore. In any manner, these masters have their evidence, and it's probably a recent Western cultural value to share and spread the information as openly as we do. Why it's undetectable by instruments could simply be because it's a form of energy that lies outside the EM spectrum. Qi could be from a completely different kind of source of energy altogether. The argument that "science is so advanced, we must be able to measure it" is riddled with logical fallacies.

Don't you care about pushing the conversation further instead of attacking personally someone who threatens your ideas? Rejecting someone else's ideas because they don't share the same worldview as you is very closed-minded. If you don't agree with his opinion, then why don't you answer him in a civilized way like Citta adressed you, and how Global answered him?

What Joedirt and Citta mentionned here is true, if Qi can have an impact on the material world, than it should be possible to measure it, or it's effect. Although I don't necessarly agree with Citta's idea that it should be able to detect it through the scientific equipment we have right now, I think it wouldn't be very hard to show how it is possible or not, through experiments, for a Master to show if he can really manipulate Chi like that.

What does "it works" mean, if it can't be shown/measured in a "scientific" manner?

SpartanII:

Your post was not very productive to the overall discussion, and I don't wish to answer when the tone of your post obviously is directed in a slightly ugly personal way towards me.

Global, ChaoticMethod:

The point is that Qi (or is it Chi?) is said to have such significant effects, and thus it should be detectable. Not necessary detectable directly, I might have made myself a bit unclear sorry, but detectable in such a way that its effects upon matter is readily detectable. So my general critical thoughts from the previous post, again not intented to shove materialistic perspectives down your throat, was that the alleged effects of Qi can be explained through well known processes of physics, chemistry and biology and thus is not attributed to some fundamentally unknown energy. And the expected gap in the knowledge of human physiology I talked about earlier, due to systems that allegedly interact with Qi, is non-existent. By the way, what is this evidence you're talking about, Global?

Anyway, perhaps I should just leave the discussion. I don't think I am especially wanted in Spirituality and Mysticism, and that's okay. I seem to generally fuck up discussions like these for some reason when I enter, even though I come out as gentle as I possibly can when putting some critical thoughts on the table