http://www.youtube.com/w...screen&v=KJr2BdUTYkU

Any thoughts, or comments?

Possibilities:

The students might be faking it on purpose (or the whole video be set up in general). I say this because all I know so far is that its a youtube video, but maybe it is a known master, genuine people and they arent faking, so this would lead to possibility 2:

Even if they are not faking it on purpose, maybe they are so 'suceptible' to it because they really believe in the master's power, that they get thrown in such a way (placebo/self-suggestion). They have, consciously or unconsciously, vested interest that the master's power works. Testing the powers against a skeptic person would be one possible way .. Doesnt the way they get thrown back seem somehow 'steretypical' ? (not that this means something but it called my attention)

Im sure there people with less than honorable intentions using words like "Chi" in a fake way to make money or get fame, or others who might be deluded about any alternative model because they are really looking for something to take them out of the spiritless modern world

Now, with that being said, I dont say its impossible for chi, or some other yet undiscovered energy (that humans can use) to exist. If there's one thing psychedelics taught me, its that there's more to reality than it seems..... This Chi might be there, it might be that this specific person you linked to has this power, or it might be that not him but someone else does...

So lets say for a moment it exists.. If so, then what? How can the whole humanity (or a siginficant part of it) reap benefits from this energy? Does one have to pay some master or go travel far to find someone to learn from?

If so, then what about the others who cant afford the travel, do they just have to accept they wont have their chi powers working, or is there a home-practicing technique? Also, how can one tell appart a hoax or charlatan from the real deal, is there anything more than just "he/she feels genuine" ? And regarding Chi in general, can this be researched scientifically, and if so how, and what would be the benefits? How does Chi interact with matter? Can these masters supposedly moved a stopped object, and if so, isnt this the easiest thing in the world to prove to skeptics in a supervised environment, and why hasnt it been done yet?

In my DMT experiences, I very regularly have an abundance of holographic energies (that seem to fit the general description of chi as I understand it) flooding my immediate space. I've talked about these a number of times, but when they come in contact with my body, it forces my body to move to it or away from it in a highly magnetic fashion. It feels like dealing with raw magnetism. Sometimes it has a heat content, some times not. The other day I was interacting with an open eyed entity that was unraveling into subtle planes of this magnetic plasma-esque chi-like material. As it collided with my body, it would lift my arms above my head and cause my hands to move about as if I were performing Qi Gong, though I'm familiar with neither Qi Gong, nor any other form of martial arts. I wouldn't say that this is placebo or that I'm the one moving my hands as such, because I have no idea how my hands are going to move, nor how they move so perfectly, nor why I can't replicate it when I'm not on DMT, or even when I am on DMT, but my outreached arms aren't actually making contact with the holographic energies. It would be like holding up magnets to each other that repelled. It's the same sensation in the sense that it feels like it's the magnet that's moving your hand that's holding the other magnet. I've tried to get it to move other matter with no luck. My guess is that it would take some serious training, concentration and know-how to do something like that.

Here's another video with chi that might illuminate some of its interaction with matter
Chi

Endless that was quite the response. I'll try to break it up and give you some of my thoughts about it.



Without a doubt most of them look very stereo typical....but I suppose a force hitting someone would look stereo typical right? Either way many of the way's people are thrown back seem as though they would be very easy to emulate...aka fake. But there are a few instances that really appear like a force has hit a person. Go re-watch the guy being thrown starting at 2:24 - 2:30ish. See that lift from the ground up into the air? I honestly think that would be very hard to pull off. I see it a few times in the video. I'm not saying it couldn't be faked...not by a long shot, but it looks convincing...

For sure though it is a youtube video, no way around that. In this day and age there can never be real video proof again. Welcome to the digital age.



If this is real I honestly hope that the 'whole' of humanity NEVER gets access to it. I wouldn't want this power because I wouldn't trust myself with it... Thus there is really no way I would want joe six pack down the street to ever gain access to this sort of power.



I'm guessing that the only real way would be direct experience. Like I said video footage in this day and age is utterly meaningless. Anyone with $400 bucks can gain access to software that will let them create amazingly accurate looking visual effects. So short of being thrown by an invisible force across the room I don't guess there is anyway to know for sure.



Perhaps it can...but I guess it would depend upon the willingness of the person with the ability.



This is the one that has bothered me the most. Why not just go prove it to the world? Well assuming this is real, then I suspect that those who have achieved something like this likely very well understand that proving it to the world would in a sense open pandora's box. Probably related to my fear above. I mean if science could prove that any man could do this it would immediately open the doors to immense research and would only be a matter of time until many people could do it....this would be profoundly bad for the current order of the world...IMHO.


MY thoughts are. I allow for the possibility, but see no need to form a belief based on a video...but I do find it rather fascinating none-the-less... also most people that reach the stage of llama don't typically feel a need to trick people, but I also allow for that possibility as well.

The wondrous world of chi power....unfortunately, it works only on attackers who are your disciples!

Believers...they believe; even when it's shown that such demonstrations of what can only be "supernatural" ALWAYS fail (or never confront) objective tests. How DIFFERENT the world would be if objective and rigorous tests could show such things actually EXIST. They NEVER do.

You would think:
1) The holders of such wondrous knowledge would want to EXPAND such knowledge far and wide throughout humanity.
2) Such a spread could happen EXTREMELY quickly and broadly with the support of objective testers of fact.
3) Ultimately...such tests seem to never get made.


I recall conversations I had with a western trained medical doctor from Pakistan, who is a Sufi Muslim. In discussing "woo" with him, he mentioned that...of course...lots of Sufi masters routinely brought people back from the dead--often for many hours; it was commonly known and demonstrated--hardly worth even mentioning! I challenged him on this. I told him, as a western trained doctor he could collaborate with me on experiments to show this phenomenon objectively. I told him he would be FAMOUS, and would bring the word of Muhammad and the Sufi teachings to the world stage! ALL WOULD BELIEVE HIS RELIGION, drop all other "wrong" religions, and all men would be brothers! I wouldn't let up on him! We discussed it for days--and how wondrous an expression of his religion would ensue!

Finally...he said he just wasn't seeking that kind of fame...

And so we see cognitive dissonance: the ability (and the desire) to keep various "compartments" in the mind--which can exist even though they are utterly incapable of rational resolution.

People just....WANT to believe.

But in the end, dismissing the need for TRUTH does not serve people well...

We have to learn to be happy even if the world doesn't work in a way that satisfies our fantasies.

EDIT: Oh, and one more thing: One has to wonder why all those AMAZINGLY MAGICAL TIBETANS weren't, apparently, able to focus just a bit of that "chi" onto Chairman Mao--just enough to stop him from sending hordes of peasants with cheaply made AK-47s to Tibet to utterly DESTROY the Tibetan culture, power structure, and religious study centers...

I dont know, im no expert in video editing nor in human physiology or kinetics. To my untrained eyes it just looks like a funny jump that a person trained into these eastern arts might know how to make, but who knows.. It doesnt change much my questions whether it looks belieavable or not either way.




The point is not that the whole joe six pack down the street has direct access but at least that he can know if that exists or not, and maybe if it does exist and that its proven real he will give up sixpack and start meditating some to achieve that too, dont you think?



And what would be direct experience? Travel far and hope to come across some exotic demonstration where I see from many meters away someone being thrown, and have no real way to test it? Or start training years and years in some random school in my town and hope its the right one ? What if I have no money to pay for the school, is this a rich people's thing, or can this also help those in real need ?



And why would it bother you? It was a question, I entertain possibilities and see where these questions lead me. You think its unreasonable of me to question it? I find it a very convenient (and unfalsifiable) claim that those who have it dont want to show because it would open pandora's box. Why is this the "default" belief one should have (and therefore not make you bothered, or thats how it seems?) to think that there are masters out there who know all these things and they dont share because the fame will be counterproductive?

What if there's do such thing as Chi ? Or what if there is something but different than it's actually talked about? What if there were masters but now they are all dead? etc etc.. Since I dont know, I cannot join this conversation and pretend to know or be strong about one belief or another, I am open to it and would like to know, if it exists, what benefit can it bring for humanity? What I dont like is that Chi became something that rich westerners can have access to in some fancy private schools or oportunity for rich travelers in some places. but I wonder about all the other people that cant get access?

Why arent there Chi masters going on solidary tours and helping starving children ? They dont even have to prove to scientists in some other way, just go and do your actions and leave... Why not?

It's funny to see men in dresses.

That said, I don't know about this video, but I have practiced Push-hands similar to what's shown in this video, and I gotta tell ya, it's really cool and potentially a very effective self-defense technique. Once you understand the principles of Yin/Yang, maintaining central equilibrium, and Fajin (explosive release of energy), the phrase in the Taiji Treatise "Four ounces are used to deflect a thousand pounds" make a lot of sense. Meditation is also essential in developing this type of energy. Internal martial arts KICK ASS!

For anyone interested in learning Taijiquan or Qigong I highly recommend the book Taijiquan: The Art of Nurturing, The Science of Power, by Yang Yang, pH.D and his at-home training video Evidence-Based Taiji and Qigong Program. I took a course in college on it and it really helped motivate me to end my 10 year opiate addiction and start training in meditation and Qigong. Truly life-changing stuff here guys.

Endlessness, it's curious that you get slightly defensive and put so much energy into declaring your position as a skeptic on this topic. (I've noticed this attitude with many other science-oriented members who are skeptical of spiritual matters as well). Why join the discussion just to say you don't believe in this stuff? You say you're open to it, but your attitude suggests otherwise. I mean no disrespect, I'm just a little confused.



Chi is just a concept for a type of energy or force that I know for a fact exists. I've felt it my entire life and only recently have been able to start channeling and manipulating it. People call it many different names but it is real and it can have many useful practical applications, and you don't need to be rich or travel to experience it. Only an open mind and a little training. Books and videos can provide a starting point, but once you start working with it during meditation and Qigong, you are able to tap into the inner wisdom that is inherently inside us all. Some call it God, some call it Silent Knowledge. It's our Higher Power and once you open your mind to it and trust it, it starts to merge with you and guide you. It becomes you. If you have a closed mind with no faith however, the doors remain closed.

You ask about benefit to humanity, well, it starts with the individual. Here are some potential practical benefits of working with Qi (or Chi/Prana) energy via meditation and Taiji/Qigong:

Primary (skill related)

Enhanced:

-Postural control/balance
-Flexibility
-Coordination
-Agility
-Strength/power
-Sensitivity/awareness
-Reaction time
-Quality of sleep

Secondary (therapeutic)

Enhanced:

-Digestion/bowel function
-Cardio-respiratory function
-Immune system function
-Prevention pr treatment of arthritis
-Cognitive function (e.g. attention, concentration, learning, memory)
-Prevention of osteoporosis
-Improvements in multiple sclerosis patients

Holistic

Enhanced:

-Avoidance or repair of stress-related injuries/illness
-Social interaction/sense of community
-Spiritual development

Source- Taijiquan: The Art of Nurturing, The Science of Power, Yang Yang, pH.D

Although I can't prove these enhancements, I can personally vouch for many of them through my continual practice of meditation and Qigong, and being trained by one of his students, I believe he's a a reputable teacher (his dual expertise as a practitioner trained in the Chinese tradition and as a scientific researcher adds to his credibility).

Well, I think Endlessness here is not being "on the defensive". He is simply sharing his point of view in order for the conversation to expand. A dialogue wouldn't be one if there was only one opinion repeating itself.

You are pointing out how the scientific oriented people on this forum are being skeptical, but we could argue that others here lack critical thinking. I think the good balance would be skeptical but open minded, wich is what Endlessness is doing here, by the way (he never says that Chi doesn't exist).

Personally, I believe in those kind of energy, and have felt them myself (although it could be attibuted to other phenomenas, so my opinion isn't fixed) but seriously doubt that they can have that kind of effects (throwing people away and such "powers".

I've always been skeptical of those claiming supernatural powers, cause it has a history of being used to convince people to join movements. A kind of marketting tactic, in a way.

Those practices we are talking about are, I think, about being in harmony with the flow and with your body's vibration. Not to impose your will on them.

My state of being bothered had nothing to do with you endlessness. My state of being bothered stems from the question you asked about why not prove it to science...and I thought I was pretty clear at addressing what it was that bothered me. It seems as though one should just go prove it to the world, but then on a second, perhaps deeper level it would make sense to not prove it to the world. My initial stance is to be bothered by those that would claim this and not prove it, but then I understand why those that could, 'if they could' would chose to not prove it to the world. Of course many of them seem ok proving it to a hand full of students...so an elements, a large element, of skepticism is also shared by me.



Thinking joe sixpack would get off the couch and start meditating because science proved a monk had telekinesis seems laughable to me.

How many times has joe six pack walked outside and seen the absolute incredible miracle that is life all around him? How many times has joe, a collection of particles from some distant star, taken the time to marvel at the fact that he has consciousness and awareness which apparently other parts of the universe such as rocks lack? If joe hasn't gotten the big ah ha moment from the world around him then I highly doubt he would get it because some scientist say's a monk has telekensis. Christ joe sixpack doesn't even like science because it challenges his world view.

Truth is. Even if scientists published this it would still remain unbelieved (The PEAR project actually did show statistical significant in a variety of phenomena...and where still shutdown). Unless EVERY scientist could gain direct access to the person with the skills it would not be believed and few scientists would even dare publish the results anyway.

I do understand why a true master in these arts would not want to subject themselves to this level of scrutiny. Besides that if it was proven then there would be throngs of religious fanatics that would seek to demonize the person? Wouldn't you agree?

Anyway I do think some of it looks fake, but then I'd ask what should a force throwing people back look like? I've never seen anything like it....and then in Globals video some of the 'jolts' look pretty realistic as well. But it's a video. Nothing can ever be proven with video any longer. The only way is direct experience. That is sort of a quagmire for those solely dependent upon science for their world view. Everything is not so easily subject to science. Subjective experience is all there really is anyway.

Besides that even when science gives people a direct insight into the nature of things many of them still refuse to believe it.

Science is the fastest growing religion today. It's becoming dogmatic. Those with out training are now spouting off as though they understand universal truths and such when in reality they are just reciting another persons dogma. I love science. It's why I chose it as a career, but I don't like scientist that refuse to allow for anything...science without an element of mysticism is totally lame to my eyes..but then I find science to be very mystical...

On another note. I'm starting to feel like it's time to take an extended break from the nexus.

I have a hard time understanding why you are focusing on scientific dogma while the skepticism isn't about the fact that it isn't in accord with previous scientific models, but simply based on the fact that there is no evidence and also no personal experience.

Believing in anything because it pleases you is as closed minded as saying something is totally impossible because it goes against current scientific models.

I guess what we are asking for is for something more than "someone told me...", "I've read on the internet..." or "that youtube video shows..."

Nobody said current scientific models are an argument against Chi Powers...

Hmmm, can you quote some specific part of my post you feel as defensive?

SpartanII, can you show any of these benefits are more than what the benefits that any low impact exercise that unites the physical part with a more psychological approach could give?

I never said there is no benefit in practicing martial arts, internal and external, thats not what my questions are about. Im talking about specifically the 'supernatural' claims that cannot be explained, like some supposed force moving through air and knocking someone out (where did this energy come from? violation of laws of thermodynamics, and if so, what can we learn from it?)

Oh and I dont understand what you said, I didnt join the discussion to say i dont believe, if you re-read what I say I made no claims about it for or against, im merely asking questions. If I wasnt interested i wouldnt be posting here in the first place.

I think you misunderstood me. I don't 'believe' this video either. I have no intrest in forming new 'beliefs' just for the sake of having them.

Believe nothing. Allow for anything. Question Everything.

As for scientific dogma consider that what the majority of the planet knows about climate science came from the nightly news...dogma. Not verifying things for yourself and trusting others. Thus my statement about science being the fastest growing religion in the world. It doesn't apply to working scientists, but to the population at large that choses to 'believe' science instead of other views. The placebo effect is VERY real...and in fact I find it to be the most fascinating part of just about every drug trial out there. Did you know the pharma industry is actively looking for way's to screen these people out early? Guess placebo doesn't help profits does it?

As an example of why this is bad, consider this example as well. We took a huge step back in healthcare when we discovered bacteria caused illness. Now everyone wants a pill. People don't want to do what it takes to not get sick, they want to live how they want and to have science miraculously cure them...and make no mistake organic synthesis and drug discovery is for all practical intents and purposes magic to the lay person.

That was all I meant. I'm not attacking science. I'm attacking some that hold the view that only science has the answers...that is a foolish view IMHO.

I've been around long enough to see certain patterns emerging from certain members (although not necessarily with Endlessness, he's usually more respectful)



Probably both.



I said "slightly skeptical". I know he didn't say "it doesn't exist".

I know, but I don't like the way you use "skeptical" as if it wasn't in his favor. Maybe I'm misinterpreting you?

It seems to me that being at least a bit skeptical of every source information is necessary in a world in wich information is considered by politicians as a weapon and by marketers as a powerful tool.

Not specifically, because it was just how I perceived your general attitude towards the OP.



Like I said, I can't prove them, besides, as stated, they are potential benefits, but in my experience, qigong and meditation work much better than other forms of exercise due to the powerful energy being channeled and the fact that it's a moving meditation which includes the physiological, mental, and spiritual effects of meditation in the exercise.



Because of my experiences in lucid dreaming, the occult and mystic practices, and psychedelics, I've learned that what we call "reality" is nothing more than a highly stable dream-state in which the "laws" of physics aren't always laws. I don't care if people don't believe me, nor do I care to try to prove it. When ones' heart and mind are closed, they don't have the necessary spiritual energy requirements and hence the flexibility of perception to experience it.

I'm curious about this part... I am 100% in agreement with you in regard to reality, and the fact that physical laws don't rule the whole of reality (realities?). But I haven't ever experienced anything going against the laws of physics in the "material" reality, or dimension. If it happens, then surely it is time to review what we consider to be the "laws of physics". But surely you have noticed that the rules aren't exactly the same in the dream reality as they are in the material, shared reality...?

Maybe you are. We are just reading each other words, so it tends to happen on the internet.



True. It's just that when one becomes too skeptical, we can close ourselves off to experiencing the magic of life. It's all about balance. Yin and yang.

Implying that Endlessness, here, was "too" skeptical?

I personally don't see the need to believe in monks having super-powers to experience the magic of life.

(Not implying that it isn't real. Just pointing out that being careful about your beliefs doesn't tarnish life's magic in any ways. Quite the contrary, it shows that you value your inner truth enough to filter the information going "in".)

Oh yes, I've noticed.

I would suggest reading the books of Carlos Castaneda if you're curious about experiencing the "impossible". Although the stories may be fiction, they eloquently provide powerful insights into the nature of our shared dream-state, and may open your mind to experiencing it.

Like I said, it requires the available spiritual energy (or personal power), and flexibility of perception. Destructurization of the ego is also a big part of it, although probably one of the most difficult aspects of achieving these experiences (at least on a somewhat consistent basis).