I agree with what you just said Benzyme. The thing is that I do not believe Cell phones cause cancer. I never argued as such...I did argue that cell phones are harmful. The sustianability thing, remember? This is the sustainability sub-forum.

Are you sure spartan ever tried to convine anyone here that cell phone cause cancer? Again, I remind you of the OP, which was along the lines of "I wonder if this cancer thing is true, what do you guys think?"



But endlessness pointed out the the ruin that has befallen this thread, and it's similarities to the spirituality debate of a couple weeks ago. The similarities are striking.




I'd much rather get along.

yeah...honestly, I don't know for sure. nobody does.
what I do know is, I see a lot of people texting while driving..this is more of a concern to me.
frankly, I think it's bulls#%^ that people are that inconsiderate, they feel that their conversation is more important than their own safety, and the safety of others around them.

cancer, from any environmental cause, takes several years of constant exposure before initial
development occurs, it's not acute

agreed with that, I've seen people driving while texting. I don't really bike on the bike lanes anymore

Yeah I think things have been taken out of context from all sides. When Ice House asked for proof, he wasnt talking about the sustainability aspect, I think, which was your answer to him. When you say something "is harmful", you arent leaving room for interpretation, you are making an affirmation, so the burden of proof is on you. Of course, now that things are further explained, you didnt mean specifically about radiation and cancer, but thats the impression your post gave, so I understand Ice House, and I think like him with you, you also took his answer out of context.

As for benzyme, he asked for peer review after M.G.K. used scientific/technical sounding words to explain why the radiation would for sure be damaging, and therefore these kind of claims naturally require something to back them up. I neither think this was out of place, but just natural.

From reading the thread again, I get the impression people get defensive when they are questioned for evidence, even if its reasonable request.



As I mentioned above, the talk about proof wasnt directed necessarily to the OP but to posters after, including you, in a perceived context that made sense to ask for it. Hence I think it was logical, and not sad, and hence why I dont think your argument defending Spartan is valid, but thats just how I see it, others may disagree. In my view, the only small example of what could be bad vibe was the sarcastic comment with the roll eyes smilie, which then started a discussion about the benefits or limits of science once again. But even still, thats just my momentary interpretation, and in the end I think it was Spartan's own expression at the moment and its not really bad vibes, even if I dont agree with the form.

Regardless, I think this is an interesting discussion, even if it has a billion directions, from effect on bees, to industry and mining, to cancer, to science and burden of proof, to economic reasons, to sustainability, etc. Maybe we just need to be more explicit what we are talking about in each post so that there arent misunderstandings like before.

I think as long as people keep being respectful, disagreeing and arguing is no problem and can only serve to make each person involved grow, as they question their own arguments.

Be well

Since this post is in the Sustainable Nexus section, I guess it is natural to bring up sustainability issues. Personally, I find that threads will go where they will, regardless. This isn't always a bad thing because we are talking about things that interest us, but it can get out of hand, and I often feel that a new thread should be started for the more tangential issues.

With this thread, I feel that all topics relating to cell phone use are fair game, but that is just my opinion.

I think it is pretty clear that no one knows for sure. I do notice that studies which try and overly limit the types of radiation, the frequencies tested, the types of cancer screened for and the like tend to be ones funded by dubious sources. The telecom industry is no different than Big Tobacco, the Petrochemical Industry, or Big Pharma... they have a product that is highly addictive and are keenly interested in maintaining whatever illusions of safety they can about that product... even at the expense of people's health. That might be quite a claim, but I think the record of the past 6 decades is clear enough that I don't need to cite references.

As for environmental, sustainability issues... I agree that these things are not cell phone specific. Your example of the waste involved in smartphones is a good one, though. People don't trade up their desktops every few months, and laptops don't come free with a new service subscription.

This is true. If I am correct, I think most electronic devices use capacitors made from tantalum which is primarily gotten from columbite–tantalite (coltan). Of course, it is an overstatement to say that all tantalum comes from the Congo, or even most of the coltan. Tantalum can be made from tin slag and smelting, and there are major reserves in both Brazil & Australia... but it has been estimated that 64% to 80% of the world's coltan reserves are in the Congo. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1468772.stm

The fact that in the past Australia had made more tantalum than the DRC is misleading in that Australia is an industrialized economy and the reserves they had were fairly accessible. Also, the DRC is not the only country in the Congo region, so we must add in the supplies of Burundi, Rwanda, Uganda etc. When looked at this way, a significant portion of the tantalum is already sourced in the region and increasing year by year. If you take all of Africa the amount is nearly 60% and rising. Production in Australia has already drastically fallen off.

Thus, it is clear that the Congo is the future of coltan, and the Chinese are currently getting most of it. Let's not forget that the Congo region is home to what might be the densest, rarest and thickest jungle on the planet. It is literally impenetrable in places, and the damage to that region should people begin clear-cuting it and make roads will be a tragic loss. There are things in that region that exist nowhere else... including the fabled giant grey chimpanzees that hunt leopards and lions (actually photographed by scientists and a skeleton found).

More pressing is the horrible cost in human life that exists in the region due to these coltan wars disguised as civil wars.

I am not giving up electronics completely, but I am with you endlessness in the idea that we shouldn't waste these things. I have 2 computers, but the one I am using now is literally almost 8 years old. (granted it was a super computer in that time, and I have continued to upgrade it with memory, hard drive space, Win 7 and whatnot.)

But the point I wanted to make about cell phones specifically that has been glossed over a bit in this discussion is the lifestyle aspect. (Again, we are in the Health and Lifestyle subformum.) I find that the cell phone revolution has damaged the quality of life immeasurably. For those of you under 30 you may not remember that people used to get together and hang out regularly... discussing things face to face. Kids were simply unreachable when they went out to play, and became much more self-reliant. Today's kids get picked up from soccer practice and driven the 5 blocks back to their house.

People used to stay together when they went to concerts, theme parks, and festivals keeping track of each other. Now, I have to stick to my cell phone using friends like glue, because they have no clue about how to keep track of people without their iPhones, and I can't be called. When I tried explaining the concept of having a meeting place that we could return to if we get separated, one of my friends asked me in all seriousness "Isn't there an app for that?"

Hopefully we will master telepathy as a species in the near future, and telecommunication will be an archaic relic of a bygone age... like the gas lamp.

I think it is far more healthy to be at peace with the prospect of dying from something unpleasant than to try to convince yourself that you won't ever get cancer (or anything else) just because you live healthily. That's just the height of naivety. I don't think I am quite well balanced enough to say that I would react as philosophically as House if I got told I had cancer, I'd probably freak out and go on a massive drink and drugs marathon... but I am certainly aware enough of the nature of the human condition to accept that some form of horrible disease or some other kind of unpleasantness is what will end my life and that it isn't necessarily going to be passing away peacefully when I'm 90 years old.

As for EM radiation... don't really care. My gut instinct tells me that it's probably not great for us but then again my gut is no scientist, lol. It's not high on my list of concerns anyway.

No.



You have misunderstood my intentions. Bedazzle was correct in his/her perception:





Exactly. It is unfortunate that my intentions were taken out of context. I'm glad Bedazzle has pointed this out. I was only expressing my disappointment that people over-rely on science studies to prove their point. As I was pointing out, studies can contradict each other, and it can sometimes be difficult to know what the truth is, especially considering the fact that the results can be bent towards an agenda due to money or politics. That's why I was asking for opinions. I respect the intuition and information of different people, but when it's are criticized just because another study comes to the opposite conclusion seems presumptuous.



Sarcastic, yes, but I assure you it was light-hearted and there was no spite in my true emotions at the time. I'm sorry you took it that way.

Fetal Radiofrequency Radiation Exposure From 800-1900 Mhz-Rated Cellular Telephones Affects Neurodevelopment and Behavior in Mice

just saw this and figured i'd post it to see what people think

^Thanks, universe cannon. I will consider this.

I've been drastically limiting my exposure to as many potential health risks as possible: Cell phones, fluoridated water, meat, dairy, and processed food, Christians, second-hand smoke, etc.