You are wrong that studying and learning takes one farther from the truth. Can you not see that almost everything we know about the current universe is through science. We have discovered countless galaxies and star systems not through "spiritual journeys" or psychedelic trips, but investigating the world around us. Many scientists enjoyed and promoted psychdelic drugs, Carl Sagan is a good example of this.

I think the psychdelic experiences fits in beautifully with a full understanding of the universe through science. It shows you that you consciousness is not as concrete as you thought, that by simply inserting a common enough chemical in the right spot in your brain you can have these magical journeys. And I think psychedelics are a good way of investigating the universe as is science. But they are separate universes you are investigating, one is the inner universe of the mind and the other is the external universe.

That to me is more amazing that chalking it off by a simple supernatural explanation, I would rather study and find out what's happening in the brain to produce those results. Because like you said, you can never duplicate that which occurs in the mind, only do the best we can with current technology.
My point is don't assume there is a spiritual vs science problem on the community. The truth is both are seperate magisteriums. What I mean by that is spiritual questions have spiritual answers, and scientific questions have scientific answers. You get problems when you pose the wrong questions to the wrong magisterium. I hope this made some sense to you.:idea:

Thanks Onethousandk, and DMTK,

--I have been trying to get involved in a healthy conversation, but do tend to run into arguments that seem to go on and on, so this stops the flow of ideas. I think we can even use this as an example of how modernday man prevents the flow of life. It's called "thinking" and allows him to obsess on his own thoughts to create a variation of the same thing. This you will see everywhere in society.

-You will see better cars, computers, hifi systems, etc. But it's still the same old stuff. All products of the "thinking mind".

--In fact, i reckon there's always "goodies" coming into our minds all the time-especially to those with open minds. All we need to do is physically manifest them,and it's ok to think about them when your doing them-because it's all part of the flow. But i don't think it's ok to think about them when you are not doing them. This is how we stop flowing/ cut ourselves off from the great knowledge: We like to "think in our own heads", do it ourselves, and mostly get it wrong. then we start doubting ourselves, when it was not a fault with us, but our "cutting ourselves off" from the source, and trying to think for ourselves that was the problem!

--Sure Science tells us about Planets-so what, how does that help us???...Who "needs" television??, who needs a rigid planned city of shiny skyscrapers. Who needs to hear the news spoken in a false, wierd, modulated and unnatural tone. Why do we "need" people to sell things to us..

--All "non thinking state" activities: such as meditation, psychadelic use, yoga, intense exercise, etc should be promoted as an antidote to this "unhealthy" state of mind.

--We may think we are free cos we are told so. But to me true freedom lies in acting on expressing knowledge from the source. "Thinking", simply blocks this, confuses our minds and makes us LESS intelligent. This is why i think we today cannot do what we could in the past do. We have lost special skills because we have based our life on the "thinking way", which has produced the world we now live in. Our world could be so much better and healthier, but instead we live in a mostly trashy world full of insignificant meaningless trendy throwaway stupid silcon boob and burger yompin' rubbish culture!..

--Are we free, well maybe in a obese and wrong television watchin' society, but in terms of the greatness of where we should be society, HELL NO!!

-what do you think dmtk and onethousandk?

-Is it burgers, and friends episodes on tv,- /or open mind, and source inspired action, action, action??? :idea:

-Surely we should trust the source information, rather than our fellow "great inspired" man. We does he get his great ideas from, maybe we should bear that in mind, ??

I agree to the extent that none of us our free. I have to go back to what Citta said about progress, you are assuming that things were better a long time ago. That is also when we didn't have vaccines and cures to a lot of diseases and the human life span was less than 40 years. Sure, we make trade offs, there are good things about our society and bad things. I think it has always been that way, the only difference is we are trying to minimize the bad and maximize the good.

I think society is a far way from where it should be, but you will never hear me say we are going in the wrong direction. We are progressing, and regardless of what anyone tells you or you believe, progress is always a good thing.
I think we are on the way to achieving a Utopian society, we may be a long way, but we are a lot better off than we were 1-2 thousand years ago. No doubt, the simple fact that you don't have to submit to religious law and are free from being shackled as a literal slave is testament to this.
Don't always think that it was better then, this is the problem so many conservatives have.
Also the bit about science telling us about "planets" not exactly what I meant but I can use that to explain my point. In a few billion years this planet will be totally uninhabitable regardless of what we do, the sun will expand into a red giant and engulf our little rock called "Earth" in flames. Without science or knowledge of planets/space travel we would be certainly doomed.
And don't you think understanding that the universe is vast and infinite composed of billion of galaxies of billions of stars and hundreds of billions of planets is fascinating. So many psychedelic users realize this whole infinite universe concept, but if it wasn't for science that would have no basis in reality.

Some Great points there, DMTK.

-Actually i now agree that the planets and solar system are fascinating for mankind. I know that we are in many ways better off from the ways things were in the past, and still have faith that we will oneday perhaps stop destroying the rainforests, etc.

-Now on that point i must get some hot n spicy relish for my triple stacked whopper-see you at the movies, slurp!

This is a false choice. I won't defend episodes of Friends, but it isn't the case that the only other option is blind faith in emotional hyperbole. How many actions based on blind instinct have resulted in worse negatives than those you point out cause by our ridiculous consumer society. Is McDonalds worse than tribal genocide? Is cable TV worse than slavery? There is an ocean of gray between the black and white you draw.

Listen, I'm not saying that we couldn't do with more meditation, yoga, direct action or anything along those lines. I would love if we had more of that in our society. But again you draw blacks and whites where gray exists. How many times have our instinct proven us wrong? There isn't a single shred of instinctual evidence that shows us that the earth revolves around the sun as opposed to the other way around. How much emotional evidence justifies all kinds of sexism, racism or other forms of prejudice? Gut instinct is just as often wrong as logical instinct.

Regarding Plato's cave, I have always wondered if Plato realized that one can never truly be sure he is completely out of the cave. You leave cave number 1 and things are great, but then you realize you are in cave number 2. Get out of that one and oops, cave number 3. At what point do you know for certain that you are completely outside looking in?

There is only one state, one being, one shape, IMO, that can be totally free and that is the state of being typically called God. You'd have to have built the caves yourself to know which one is the last one.

I think that existence as humans is inherently constrained. There isn't a totally free human because they would have to be all knowing and I doubt a human brain could contain all that.

I tend to think that all of existence is actually fractalline. This implies that no matter which direction you go you are heading in the same direction you came from. The more free you become, the less free you are. The more people try to enslave you, the more you think for yourself. I think there are an endless number of Plato's caves for us humans, and they are omni-directional too.

I agree that existence is a fractal. It's my opinion that this is because organization requires it. You can't exist in a chaos system and if it isn't chaos it's organized. Plato's caves are infinite, even for god (if he/she/it exists) because I don't see how you can exist without organization and with organization comes boundaries. Everything is a system and a system implies limits (even if those limits are infinite).

--There is nothing wrong with a system as long as it functions in an honest positive way, as per aligned with the greater good. Sadly many societies are not, and are in a mess. Yes, even in our so called 1'st world countries.

It's also worth pointing out something I read awhile back from the works of Robert Monroe that to know what freedom is one must first understand what it is not.

This seems to fit into this topic nicely because what we're trying to describe is another of those things that cannot be described with words. What is freedom really? As it's already been stated with regards to Plato's cave allegory is even if someone escapes cave 1, how can they be sure there isn't a cave 2? How can we as psychonauts be sure that hyperspace isn't just a situation that is more free than physical life, but still not free completely. I mean, we don't have perfect mobility in these spaces, it seems we just go along for the ride really. Is that free, or is something leading us which wouldn't that mean that what we experience is all part of some grander plan.

Going back to the works of Monroe, I'm reminded of an astral being he encountered that told him for all of this travels in the other realm that they were aware of grander and greater vistas further on even though they, these incredibly advanced beings, hadn't been there to visit them yet. Perhaps there is no end to the scope of freedom we experience. Maybe freedom is a concept that is synonmous with unconditional capital 'L' LOVE, who knows really?

Are we ever truly free, or can one find freedom even in bondage? They can make me pay my taxes and pay my insurance, but they cannot control the freedom I can find in my own thoughts, providing I don't take what I'm told too seriously.

Have psychedelics shown me greater freedom? Of course. Are there other ways to experience greater freedom in the here and now of 3D earth space? I believe so. In another thread someone posted the story of an Indian man who has traveled all over the world by bicycle without more than $1 in his pocket. This individual says he is happy whether he is cold, hungry, tired, or whatever the situation. He found his own personal freedom and happiness by choosing his own path. I think maybe that's the ticket to experiencing freedom for yourself.

It's not fair to say that if this or that would change we would be free. I had a spell where I felt like this and all it did was add to my anxiety as taking on the world's problems is too much for any one person to devote themselves too (and I'm not implying it's not a noble goal, but it's about the small, daily things not the big things). In the end, you have to trust that everything is right on course, and I've never had the feeling while tripping that something was wrong with our reality. It's just constructed this way, is what I've been shown. Going back to my original statement, it's design seems to be to show us what freedom IS NOT, in order to fully appreciate what it is when you're faced with it.

I don't pretend to understand the nature of this reality, however I am quite content to just 'go with it' as it seems more natural to do so. I am only responsible for myself and I cannot force change upon the world or others, and I just wouldn't want to. How would that make me different from any religious person who wants to push their way onto someone else? All roads are valid and all roads provide freedom but it's up the the individual to find that freedom for themselves. What I consider freedom in this life might be considered boring or unpleasant for someone else, but to me that's my freedom.

If psychedelics have taught me one thing it's to look within for my freedom, because I will not be able to find it if I look anywhere else.

Christian, My only suggestion would be to quit worrying so much about what everyone else is doing. Don't compare yourself to others, you won't find any freedom in that. The other thing is that you may get twenty years down the road and look back at this very moment and realize that you too were living a lie. In the meantime bring a little love and forgiveness to the other unenlightened 90%. And just so you don't feel picked on, I would give the same advice to myself.

Words I try to live by.

-Agave, thanks for your concerns. But i don't know what you're trying to say. I live my own path, and do my own thing. I'm not really bothered about what others do, that's their business-not mine. And i try to help people with good advice, and never said i was perfect or enlightened, and cannot be held responsible for peoples judgements,etc.

--Of course i wish everyone out there love and forgiveness, but not in a patronising way..

So what? We gain information about our environment and unveil the mystery just a little bit more every time. To me at least, that is a great part of the reason for psychedelic experimentation - looking a bit further than what I normally can. Science, albeit in a different way, allows you to do just that.



While these "non thinking state activities" have, I think, their intrinsic value, let us note that we would not be having this conversation were it not for the rational mind, who built the internet and all the preceeding technology that led to it.

-Sure, Computers are amongst the exceptions.