you sound like it, good i’m sorry, i didn’t mean to inquire or assume.
thing is i’ve always wanted to travel, i mean that (is) freedom. and to see society or societie(s) from the edges. people , places , times , must bring on such a different perception for you? depending on how you travel....

no they are not really offensive coming from you. maybe a little defensive, maybe. but i think your first post is word for word spot on. its true, you’re dealing with honesty. it’s just i think some people don’t have your tone down, cause ya have a tone and anyway its just an opinion.

i just thought you might have been getting into something with this thread.. maybe have had somewhere you wanted to go in specific detail..?
huh yah i mean really? what is money
it symbolized what you had to do to get it.
now ask if that really benefited anyone in the long run, or ask if it did your governments


ah okay christ, so you read like code or something.. unless it was ¿rhetorical¿

●• -If you wanna go speak to God, then you go to the church, and read the bible.

-in a free and evolutionary society.. (many people; would have many ideas; of and about many things...) as to say in other words, i get your point.. what on earth do you suggest we do about it?! (just a question) do you want to get into specifics? i could try that.. yeah a discussion about specifics.. because i think its obvious we’re all usually talking about similar troubles and specifics including ‘Government’. let the word sink in aye?

Government has structure.. i’ll give it that. but it has gone too far already, -as it is- or maybe you’re right and everything is just running its natural course. but i think its strange when 'we' don’t even really include consciousness in our physics. wah? to the point where yeah the majority of people might be okay with whatever it is we don’t like that ‘they’ (governments) do. but what about the planet? what about all other species and ...what about mankind ? still under that governing.. ah too bad......

"you never studied."- Ray Ghost busters...

Why are we so much more lost now than we have been at any times before? Our development has not been exclusively negative, neither has it been exclusively positive. But this is the way it has always been, and probably always will be as long as we are here. And what exactly is it, this wisdom that you are talking about, that would save us all and that we can connect with through psychedelics? It's just so far off, christian, it's on the brink of being ridiculous.

There is most likely no such thing as a natural "god" intended life. And if it was, how do you know what that would be? What about a muslim, a jew, a hindu, a buddhist, a shaman, an atheist and all other people that have different thoughts about what is a "god" intended or natural life? Who's wrong and who's right? Who should I listen to? Do you see the problem here, christian? What if I take psychedelics and experience something different from you?

And the past was certainly not a dance on red roses either, no matter what you may think. It doesn't take much history reading to realize this, seriously.

I Can see your side of the fence, Citta.

-And of course i am talking about ritualized use of psychadelics as a way of allowing people to not only connect with themselves, nature, etc, but the universal consciousness. I don't mention religions because i believe that freedom means no religion other than direct connection to the universal consciousness. Certainly not through complicated dogma and the usual religlous blarb.

-I don't think Psychadelics have "all the answers", but i do think that they can help people and touch them in deeper ways than any religion ever could. I'm not even saying that such peoples should partake very regularly-only from time to time, etc.

-Of course life was never easy, and never will be. However i believe that a direct and natural way of living represents freedom in it's real meaning as opposed to a comfortable lifestyle that can be lived thanks to the often confusing and indirect way we live today, where true freedom is hampered by city laws rather than the natural "laws" of the great outdoors.

What is this about ?

Unfortunately, we are all slaves to relativism.

--Dorge, i dunno what you mean.. Can you explain yourself please... What does "studying" have to do with asking if we are free??, do you mean free in a sense defined by your government, or truly "honestly" free. Can we Trust in studies anyway. Are they true, or are they limited by certain censorships of the day???

Now you're starting to lose me. I think he meant studied as in studying material that is accepted as fact, especially scientific fact based on multiple studies or experiments giving the same result with different designs. Science isn't censored or subject to dogma, it is tentative and as objective as possible. The only things which would be censored to some degree in science would be those studies or experiments which show nothing, or were flawed in design. Even then, if it was published, it should still be available in some form, somewhere.
Don't take this to mean science disproves any of your claims, because it doesn't, I'm just commenting on the nature of science.

I AM FREE

Thanks Dmtk for your explanation, however i was asking Dorge for clarification, it would be nice if Dorge could explain himself more clearly.

--Sure, Science can prove certain things, But no amount of studying or going to university is gonna make you wiser to the pyramids (nor to trusting your intuition!). For years it was believed they were for burial purposes, now they believe different..Science really fails when it comes to explaining ancient civilizations, because of lack of translatable written down knowledge, etc... but i think you'll agree that there is a world of difference between theorizing about building a pyramid vs actually building one, and also between the theorizing of how the pyramids were built vs how they actually were built.

---Science can only offer theories, yet still cannot prove whether those people at the time perhaps had a different mindset possibly due to the fact that they were born into life with a single goal to focus their energies into : accomplishing the construction of a pyramid. Science can only guess, and not prove for this. There are theories of Aliens, cosmic alignment, etc...Nope..the stuffy white shirted bespectacled scientists CANNOT be sure on this one, nor all the studies can be believed. They may even be preventing us from realising the real purpose of the pyramids!...Maybe like the Chinese are trying to do with theirs...

----It is all theory, nobody knows for sure...

Dreamtimereturn,

-Thanks for your response. Actually i was talking to a friend yesterday who has himself recently started backpacking. He's very happy that he did, and can't wait till he gets another chance. He agreed with me that what is so good about travelling is the perspective it gives. Its so important to "get out of the system", so that you can see it for what it really is. It's virtually impossible otherwise, because "responsabilities", and work "duties" are always knocking at your door. My friend also agreed with me that Psychadelics may help clear junk out of the mind, but that most of the pollution was from conditioning, religion, governments, media, etc.

--Anyway, we all have to decide how we want to live. Whatever rocks your boat

Well you are right about one thing, archaeology is severely limited by its sources. That's why it took so long to find sufficient evidence for evolution, because it takes time and fortune to find even one valuable specimen.
I agree we don't know for sure how they were built, and I would go a step further and say we don't have a solid concrete theory as to how they were built for sure. We do have some ideas that may be true based on what we have found.
Another interesting fact, did you know the majority of Egyptian archaeological sites are yet to be discovered... That means with more time and better archaeology techniques we may one day get a definite answer, or as close as you can get it.

OF COURSE!

I totally agree that most people are 'asleep' but I have to agree with citta when he says that psychedelics aren't going to save the world. Reason being is because people are too scared to take them.

I'm one of those that believes that psychedelics can and usually do greatly advance those that take them, what I mean by advance is an advance in understanding of the universe and our relationship to it. I've seen too many radical changes in too many people to buy into this idea ' oh its just a chemical reaction in the brain and no big deal'

I'm here to tell you that it is a big deal and the only reason that these things haven't done much more for humanity than they already have is because people live in fear and wont give them a chance.

Shame really.

“Study and practice are both very important, but they must go hand in hand. Faith without knowledge is not sufficient. Faith needs to be supported by reason. However intellectual understanding that is not applied in practice is also of little use. Whatever we learn from study we need to apply sincerely in our daily lives.”
— Dalai Lama

Go ahead and argue with the Dali lama if you like...

"we are all born enlightened and spend the rest of our lives dealing with confused people." chogyam trungpa rinpoche said this and that includes you, me and all the people your putting in this category of being unenligtened from birth who LIKE YOU... are very confused.

Also I might add in your response in regards to freedom as defined by ones government, victor frankle the god father of existential psychology pointed out, after his stint in a Nazi concentration camp that ones government can take away everything but ones spiritual freedom, which is the foundation of all freedom regardless of the environmental or external conditions one finds themselves in. No government can take this from anyone... We can choose however to ignore it... But that is in essence that spiritual freedom exerting itself as well... I'm sure you learned all of the above in your countless studies... And I'm just preaching to the choir here... Can't fill a full cup, especially if it's filled with hubris...
Study... You will learn that many of these positions you take have been taken and transformed by wisdom and left by the way side. Your position is really nothing new. Study those that came before you with some humility and you will find that out.
We stand on the shoulders of giants or we pretend and have our heads in the clouds and our feet in our mouths...

haha...Dorge, am i trying to say something new ?-NO, am i trying to convert people ?-NO, am i saying i'm enlightened?-NO!

---I'm simply saying this, to REMIND people.

--I have tirelessly stated that Psychadelics are but "tools"( and not the full answer) to be used as part of a healthy balanced lifestyle, have i not- or did you not read my posts??

--I could dredge up 1000 times more spiritual quotes than you have quoted, from all kinds of "so called" spiritual/enlightened people like the Dalai Lama, etc. But there's no need to.

-- That i'm stating nothing new??- You could say the same about 99% of this forum. Most of the Psychadelics have already been tested to kingdom come by the likes of Terence Mc Kenna, etc, and his documentations and philosophies still stand strong,..We are not really breaking much new ground, except resureccting the world of psychadelics etc...

---However some of us needs to be reminded from time to time not to lose oneself into the office politicks, burger and fries munchin', and friends on tv watchin' lifestyle- Dont cha think so??

---Is it such a problem to ask oneself if one is truly free...surely such questioning should be welcomed, and if one can be assisted then one should consider the possability??

1000 times more spiritual? Ok...... How do you know if it's more spiritual...
I commented you don't study, you don't have a strong rational or reason based approach. The Dali lama quots extrapolated on that. I used the quotes as examples to support my position, not just to post a quote to make my self look sagely... Your approach is immature, and really judgmental.
No there's no problem with reminding people, but that's not what your doing is it? Your judgeing people, comparing them to yourself, using yourself and your own thoughts as the highest standard you set for others, your arguments with others are based in utter hubris (go ahead look that up) and you fail to see that your standard of health and wellness does not even remotely have to be close to those of others. Health and wellness are unique to the individual.
There are many people with acute psychiatric disorders who entheogens would NOT be healthy for. Your not including them in your irrational huge sweeping statements. For some people just being able to take the bus is the greatest freedom they could ever discover within themselves... But your not even thinking about those people, and you I would guess don't think of those people as counting in your conversation do you?
There are also many many diverse cultures and peoples on this planet who experience the world so dramatically different then you do you cannot speak for them or their health and sense of freedom. As a matter of fact you can't do that for anyone!

You ask if one is free, but what you cannot do is ignore the possibility that your idea of freedom is the only true and valid one.
And yes I've read your posts, it's painful but I perservered...

Dorge, i'm glad i don't erm "STUDY". , because i wouldn't like to appear as unfriendly as you do. I'll apologise if i'm wrong, but it seems that You have never responded to ANY of my posts in a pleasant way, so i don't understand why you even bother to do so. Perhaps you like to "pick at faults", and overanalise them like some others do. This is the ills of the "thinking" mind!!, Can't you see when you do this you shut your "all knowing connection" down, as you swivel on the argument tip?? Perhaps you would be wise to lighten up a little. This is a nexus "problem", we have spiritual vs scientific people here. The Spiritual is hard to prove and the scientific crowd are always arguing, looking for "proof". Perhaps all this studying makes you think you are superior because it's scientific and "proven". Actually i believe the more you think and study, the more stupid and closed to the truth people become-Because in doing so we miss out on the big picture....-This is probably why we cannot build things like we did in the past anymore, and construct throwaway junk instead!!...

--We all know of hyperspace, but can we scientifically prove it, or photograph it??-NO.
-Does this therefore make it utter nonsense and madness instead??

--Have a little faith in the "unproven", my son...Science cannot prove everything, actually what Science knows is just what we think it can Know because Science is a product of the thinking and analitical mind. Therefore Science knows very little indeed, compared to the great "out there"....

-- My comments are my views, and perhaps most mentally ill people today are so, because of the world we live in, etc. And i have cared for mentally ill people so i know what i'm saying here.

--And i'm not saying psychadelics are for everyone...Obviously not for children, kids, and CERTAIN mentally ill people,etc. Don't be so ridiculous to assume i would mean this.. Why even assume this.

RayOfLight,

At first I was going to simply agree. On one level it seems to be a big deal. But in reality, I think it turns out it was really big deal in 'the story of me'.

Paradoxically, the greatest open secret that might be revealed by psychedelics is that there isn't really a me at all. So then was it truly a big deal? Only as part of a fictitious story of me. What liberation without me. Its what we all already always are - even when we are playing me and you.

The sleep ends when it ends. If a story is tied to it that's fine. That story sounds like 'religion did it', 'near death did it', 'meditation did it', 'loss and suffering did it', or 'psychedelics did it'. But when it sinks in and the story is seen for a dream. Then nothing did it to no one.

This is why DoctorMantus is free. Everyone asleep is already free. Freedom is all there is. It allows for the feeling of 'I'm not free'. Freedom playing at not being free. Really - it wouldn't be freedom if it wasn't allowed to pretend not to be free.

This might explain the fear of psychedelics (at least after first experience). If freedom is 'into' the game of 'I'm a person' - the demonstration of an alternative can raise alarms.

There's really no point in wanting others to be free. There is only freedom. Let it play in all its infinite and temporary forms. The dream ends when it ends. Its all just perfectly happening eternally.

Dorge, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he's talking about being more scientific. He's talking about being more humble and less judgmental. And I would agree. Your statement about "90% of the population" speaks to your lack of one and your extent of the other.

Edit: Let me clarify myself here because I think I may not have articulated myself properly. I'll also stop presuming to speak for Dorge. From my perspective, christian, a large part of my problem with your posts is that you appear to lecture. You seem less interested in a conversation than simply making your steadfast opinions heard. You probably don't intend to come off this way but you seem very convinced that you're doing it right and "90% of the population" is doing it wrong. The world is more complex than that. A bit of humility goes a long way.

I would also argue that you have a very rosey picture of the past. We're as ignorant as we ever were and always will be.