With some help from my wife I have done as many as a dozen blind tests with three variations of spice-

pure white crystaline
bright yellow crystaline
dark orangish waxy jungle

My dose of choice is 30mg

I can decern no difference in onset, intensity, quality, or longevity of experience.

I support and believe in something that endlessness has stated on many an ocassion-

The power of sugestion is huge when it comes to the DMT experience.

Sooooooo that being said, I have made up my mind that there is no difference.
I have halted the official blind testing.
I imagine at this point I am a tainted subject.

IH

That's so cool that you ran this experiment, Ice House

Props to you and the wife...hopefully more people can follow in this vein.

----Icehouse, i feel your anguish, man. And feel it should be my duty to "put up" with staying at the "icehouse homestead" and sampling these different dmt's for you. Yes, i know it's awful, but some unlucky fools gotta do it!!

SWIM has had very different results with his double blind testing than Ice House.

He has sampled 10 different people with:

A) White spice made with naptha
B) Yellow spice oxidized from white spice on purpose
C) Orange and Purplish stuff made from Limonene
D) Deep purple jim jam scraped up from goo left over after a re-x of Jungle Spice.

A few of them did actually see what they were smoking, but 10 out of 10 people could tell the jim jam from spice. This stuff might have DMT in it as burnt and others have shown, but it is of an immediately recognizable "other" characteristic. The other 3 spices were somewhat more difficult to distinguish. Though the darker the stuff, the more the quality of the experience seemed colored with the Jim Jam effect which is characterized by an entirely different style to the visuals.

Even the white (relatively pure nn dmt) vs. the yellow (n-oxide) was very noticeable to the more sensitive people. The most common report was that it was friendlier and somehow a bit slower to come on. This friendlier vibe has been reported frequently when comparing chacruna based aya to mimosa based aya... and it is well known that chacruna has significantly higher n-oxide levels.

I don't think that Ice House's tests or SWIM's prove anything conclusively, but I will put this to you all logically.

If Ice is right and there was no qualitative difference, than the so called full range spice would be some percentage of extra stuff which would have to be inactive or unnoticeable. Subtract this percentage from the amount consumed and what he is also saying is that there is no qualitative difference between smoking his full dose and smoking this reduced portion.

SWIM tells me that the amount of purple stuff left over after re-xing his darkest material (made with a lot of heat) was fairly substantial. Over 10% of the volume. So that would mean that in this case, Ice would be saying that not only is this purple leftover inactive, but that smoalking 25mg is the same as smoalking 30mg. This is not SWIMs experience.

Perhaps the suggestibility runs both ways. Maybe people who want to believe that the materials are identical will create identical experiences? Who knows. The one certainty for SWIM is that that purple goo was certainly psychoactive and did not resemble any other spice experience as much as it did other psychedelic chemicals he has played with... though it was not extremely strong by weight. He even made some changa with the goo and found that it was not substantially improved.

If I may post a critique; that kinda negates the "double blind" label.

Otherwise, I do agree that I would expect some qualitative difference in the jungle experience if mthbc is, in fact present in that given sample. I also agree with you on the suggestability; that is something that has run through my mind on occasion as well. One thing to think of is that if there is an additional alkaloid (or more), at some point in the dosage range it should become apparent, regardless of mindset. Although depending on the ratio to dmt present, that may not be feasible due to the larger dose dmt affecting the perception of additional compounds. More testing would be awesome.

I think the main difference at least for me is that white spice is smoother for the lungs than yellow/orange, probably due to the lack of plant oils...
Also often I can feel some differences in the effect itself, yellow/orange having smoother transition and higher body load and white being kind of fast in transition and less body load(often). These are just some repeated themes in my yellow/white spice experiments.
I prefer nowadays spice that's just slightly yellow.

True. It was not a clinical test. It started out as just curiosity, and then some people were willing to close their eyes. Still a majority was done double blind. Obviously the purple goo is clearly different in its taste and smell. It is no wonder people can tell the difference. Also, once you have tasted that jim jam stuff, then it is easier to taste the difference with jungle varieties as well. The floral and fruity characteristics are obvious even before vaping.

More importantly, the psychoactive qualities are stark at the jim jam level.

I must add that the yellow/orange spice has more fraqrance/smell than the white spice. Could it be that the plant oils give off the smell? It's rather nice smell anyway.

from your description of what your smoalking, there in, the difference may lie.

I am not using any heat what so ever in my extractions. I do not use heat because of how much extra it pulls.

My full range spice aka jungle spice is not anywhere close to a purple color. It is a brick red\orange color and waxy in texture.

What I have discovered over the years is that, when I do my extractions, it is better to rely on father time than to heat things up to improve the results. IME, heat tends to break down the plant matter faster and I get more unwated or unnecessary artifacts in my final product. I normally pull what I call jungle with heptane and I pull it on my last pull or two. It is not uncommon for me to allow my last pull or two to soak for 2-3 months at a cool 65 degrees far. I do shake the jars once a week.

Time rather than heat, IMO, yeilds the best results.

I completely understand what you are saying about what the variation could possibly be in a 30mg dose of white vs jungle. I dont believe the difference is as much as you are suggesting. I am getting some variation in color and texture indeed, however I dont think it adds up to a 5mg difference. I must also add here that I often feel almost no difference between 25 and 30 mg.

the 25-30 mg zone is the hyperspace zone for me. 30 garantees breakthrough. Below 20 is never enough. above 30 is always too much. 25 is a breakthrough most of the time but not always. When I do breakthrough on 25 I cant decern it from 30mg.

The power of suggestion plays a huge role. I can tell the difference in taste when I smoalk jungle. This has caused me to expect different results or effects but the effects I experience with jungle is the same as white spice.

^

I think you're right as far as heat goes. Though the lovely fragrance and taste of the heavy heated pulls is nice, and whatever the extra stuff is... SWIM doesn't find it harsh or expect that it is harmful.

Like I said, SWIM finds that the remains from a re-x are a joy to puff on their own. Not enough DMT left to breakthrough, but the "other" characteristics that people talk about with Jungle are there in spades. Methinks that smoking this JimJam stuff is a fine way to see that the difference is not merely suggestion. Comparing Jungle to White spice could be difficult to say as the DMT takes over anyway, and the main difference as you say is just the taste and smell. But smoking relatively pure JimJam removed from any large concentration of DMT... one can see that there is something there and it feels nothing like DMT. Dreamy purple visions from wonderland, not encounters with the full gas hyper elves.

Anyway. People will have to see for themselves if they find those other mimosa oils and alks to be active as well.

HF: Yeah I always have felt the yellow/orange D has different effect as the white has. Maybe I really should do a re-x and save the yellow stuff and toke it. Could really clear up that what actually the difference is. Has anyone tried smoking re-x "leftovers"?

Yesterday i took a little Brunfelsia chiricaspi leaf that was infused with yellow jurema oils.
Didnt know the leaf was psychoactive itself, had some tea lying around and wanted to test the oils on activity with a 2x1 cm leaf.

The vape`s consequences were an spontaneous awareness of some chakras while standing/walking and being externally focused.
After 10 minutes, sleepiness and very slightly stoned. increased ability to go deep in the mind space while being conscious and focus there on energies or topics while laying still with closed eyes. Dealing with mental/emotional blocks basically.

Feel asleep eventually, no noticeable change in dreamspace or perception the next morning.

Yeah, I mention SWIM's many experiments with the stuff here in this very thread.

Did you make it also from yellow DMT or only from



As I'm interested in the effects from the oils that are left over from re-x'd yellow DMT...

I'm just wondering, as it's oily stuff, is it hard on the lungs?

The re-x oils from yellow are mostly similar to honeyspice. In fact, yellow, being usually mostly just oxidized DMT, is not at all much different from the crystal stuff. Slower come up, slightly longer journey... friendlier.

The purple red goo, though, is another drug entirely.

People say n-oxide (as well as the jungle oils) isn't soluble in Naptha, but it is, to some degree, when everything is warm. If you've been roling warm naptha and soup around, you will see the naptha gets rather colored (yellow or even redish). If you wait a few minutes it will go back to a more clear shade, but if you siphon it while colored, you will get something that doesn't want to crystalize. Some of it will drop out, and some will only come out with evap or the naptha cleaning teks (methanol, water etc.)... it is a pain to work with, but that honey stuff is AMAZING.

Not hard on the lungs in the least.

..this is really interesting stuff, people, thanks..some of this could be partially cleared up with careful chromatography and reagent experiments..
there is some stuff in recent Advanced Chemistry threads dealing with this..having reference samples (can be plant material) helps...

seechromatographic properties of n-oxide
andentheogenic effects of nmt p.2 post#48
.

Strange, because I've thought that the re-x leftover orange/yellow oil is just inactive plant oils with little DMT... So basically what you're recommending is that one should save the stuff and smoke it and the effects would be like normal orange spice?
Are you sure it's just oxidized DMT and not plant oils or something else?
I've also noticed that the yellow/orange DMT has much stronger aroma than the white DMT, makes me wonder is it the smell of the plant oils or the oxidized DMT...

PS. Is honeyspice just yellow DMT?

No no.

There are surely plant oils there. The plant oils just happen to be somewhat psychoactive on their own.

Burnt determined that there is NMT in jungle spice as well.

Some of the oils are aromatic, most likely. Though, indole is pretty aromatic on its own.

Unless you were sloppy with your siphoning, the re-x oils are surely worth saving. Hard to handle and store, but you could dissolve them in ethanol and infuse herbs with them.

The effects are similar to the darker spices, but distinct. And when you get the really purple stuff after doing multiple re-x's and getting nearly all the DMT out, that stuff is nothing like any spice at all.

Honeyspice is not just yellow DMT. It seems to be predominantly yellow oxides, but is saturated with oil to the point that it will not dry out or even form goo. It is the stuff that won't freeze precip and, while no one seems to have studied it (at least I can't remember reading any reports about its makeup), subjectively it feels like an even softer and friendlier yellow spice with some jimjam vibes on top.

If I can make a suggestion, dont say "plant oils are psychoactive on their own" if you have no analytical equipment and appropriate controlled testing to back it up. You can of course say: "It seems to me", or "My hypothesis is that..." or similar, and give you reasoning why.

So Im wondering, how do you know your "active plant oil" isnt NMT / DMT N-Oxide / 2-MTHBC ? What was your method for isolation?

endlessness

If you read through the thread there are plenty of SWIM finds, seems to be's and the like peppered through my posts here. I can't be bothered to put a disclaimer before everything I say. If someone doesn't get that this is subjective information gleaned from direct experience... oh well.

Nearly everything that is said on this site could conceivably require some disclaimer.

I never said the active plant oil isn't NMT, n-oxide or 2-MTHBC. Nobody knows for sure. What I said was that it isn't just DMT. Anyone with enough spice experience should be able to tell the difference. The one guy who said with certainty that he found there to be no difference here actually never tested isolated oils, but just jungle spice. Considering how overpowering the DMT experience is, it is not surprising that any extra oil effects might be obscured in that form. So far, I haven't read of ANYONE testing the purple re-x stuff.

Therefore, SWIM's semi-controlled experiments where 10 of 10 people could immediately tell the difference is the most valid information posted on the subject here on the Nexus. It proves nothing, and will never be published. But I am fairly sure that SWIM is among a select few spicenauts here who have any experience with that stuff at all.

Even "appropriate controlled testing" is not a proof of fact. It only says that at that time, with that batch of materials... this amount of that was found. And even then, there could be plenty of things that aren't found in the technique of analysis that are still there. We will surely invent new methods and techniques of analysis which will find things we previously didn't know existed. Afterall, no one found Salvinorin B at first, and now there is a lot of talk about Salvinorin C as well.