Does that include personal information?
Is there not a line where free information conflicts with a right to privacy?
Does having free access to information in general improve the quality of life of everyone?

What you say makes a lot of sense, but does it mean that unless an author wants to lecture and speak that they should give up? What about authors who use anonymous names and publish material that puts them at risk?
What about if the author becomes sick and unable to lecture, then they are just out of luck?
If they have an accident?

Something about pirating books of psychedelic authors just feels wrong to me.
I admit I don't feel the same about Steven King, so to speak, but then he doesn't publish out of pocket and isn't hurting for money from piracy. It is obvious piracy does not harm all authors, but authors in our community seem pretty hard hit by it. I'd rather we look out for one another without having to be asked to do so by someone needing help because we didn't look out for them.

I get the whole rob from the rich thing, but when you are stealing from the poor it becomes different, doesn't it?
Is piracy of books from people like Ott, Shulgin and Trout really sticking it to the man?
If a small portion of the people who downloaded Shulgins books ended up buying them then the Shulgins would never have to ask for help.

How about if instead of saying that "pirating is worse than being a narc" or such inflammatory affirmations, we agree that the problem is not supporting the authors and people that have contributed to our community in at least some way, when its in one's reasonable possibilities to do so.

Also its important to realize the fine details which make a difference when talking about the ethics of "pirating" (such a biased term already), such as context, social situation, intentions, long term plans regarding supporting the community, etc. Also remember we all have different ways to contribute, some people may pay for conferences and lectures that pay for author, others may donate directly, others may spread the word and in turn generate more money directly or indirectly, etc etc.

Ok.

You are right.

I feel strongly that in some cases it constitutes a form of betrayal and that narcing is betrayal as well.
I was wrong to say that they were the same, even if it is my opinion, and it is.
I am sorry. I feel very strongly about this matter and am very passionate about the cause of sharing information with those who benefit from it.

It is really depressing to see how some people in our community are affected by piracy and sad to see them have to ask for help.

Who has publicly asked for help while acknowledging that the reason they need help is due to people pirating their books?

I think d*l*b asked this several times...specifically in relation to Shulgin. I think he wanted some real sources showing that publishing his third book was untenable due to piracy.

Is is known that Shulgin has been negatively affected by piracy.
It is also known that their financial situation is affecting their ability to continue working on it and other things.
If a portion of the people who download his works ended up paying for them then he would not be in that situation.


When Shulgin prices his book and asks that someone pays that, and they do not, it just shows how little they regard him.
However if they paypal him and send cookies that isn't true.

I do think that to deprive an author of their asking price for a work is to steal from them.

You can't say it is known...you need to cite some sort of evidence...like a statement that he made where he explicitly stated that piracy is the reason for his financial state.

You say "it is known"...I do not know this...so it is not known to me.

How about some evidence? A quote from Shulgin perhaps that explicitly states what you are claiming? d*l*b has been asking for this since the second page, I believe.

I need no such thing.

That you do not know it does not mean that it is not the case.

Moreover a statement saying that his financial problems are due expressly to piracy is absurd, all that is needed is a statement that piracy has harmed his finical situation and a statement that his financial situation has harmed the publishing situation.

Why ask me? Why not ask someone close to him?
Do you really need a quote?
If someone close to him tells you he has been hurt by piracy is that not good enough for you?
I know that is good enough for me.

Has someone close to him informed me that he has suffered from piracy?

I honestly don't know...did I miss something in this thread?

I just think that it's a little odd for you to be claiming that you know his financial situation to be as a result of people pirating his book rather than anything else...I don't know you, so obviously it could be that you are intimately acquainted with him...as I said, it just seems odd otherwise for an individual to claim that they know Shulgin's financial situation to be a result of the piracy of his works.

I do not know him first hand.
I do have more than one friend who does.
I do think very highly of Shulgin, but when given the chance to meet him I chose to leave him be. the last thing he needs is another person dying to ask him hours of questions

I am speaking for myself, not him and not for his friends and allies.
His financial problems are not caused by piracy, piracy does however harm his finances. Piracy can be stated to be part of his financial problems, but not the sole cause. His stroke and healthcare costs are also related to his financial problems.

I am not against piracy in general, but I am not against theft in general either and I think piracy is theft. I would steal to survive, I think theft and piracy can also be effective political tools and that they should be used as such. I do not appreciate the concept that not being able to afford a book means that it is okay to download it, why should a lack of money for one person be an excuse to deprive another of money from a purchase?

My understanding though is that decline of book sales can be demonstrated to coincide with the same books being placed online for free download.

And with for-profit ebooks and ebook readers (which, by the way were just hit with a price fixing scandal )

This. The author you spoke of who paid out of pocket to publish a book, why would he ever do that when he can use Print On Demand and e-publishing? It's not the pirates that put debt on his shoulders.

When you are talking about a full color work with hundreds of pages and photographs electronic publishing kind of sucks, printed versions are also crappy compared to a nice well put together book.

I hate reading books in pdf and other electronic formats and vastly prefer a well made hard copy that i can annotate and mark as needed for study.

So while you have a good point there i know i am not alone in my preference. I will however ask him about electronic publishing. It is interesting that the Shulgin Index was published both in hard copy and an electronic copy, so the two formats are not mutually exclusive.

that is likely the best compliment i have ever been paid
thanks!

Wow, what a doozy of a thread! Many good points have been raised. And at risk of further prodding a subject that's been discussed to death, there is an important aspect of the discussion that I think has been largely ignored or swept aside: There is an important distinction to be made between books that are currently in print and books that have been out of print for many years.

I may be wrong, but I suspect this thread was inspired by untm's post sharing Ott's Shamanic Snuffs or Entheogenic Errhines in pdf form. Whether it inspired this thread or not, considering that book can provide an instructive example, since several relevant factors are involved. Most importantly, that book is out of print. There is no way to acquire that book in any way that would provide any financial compensation to its author. The only way to legally acquire it is to spend $500-$1000 on a used copy that is in all likelihood somewhat worse for the wear due to the attentions of a previous owner. Should people who are genuinely interested in the subject matter really be denied access to the information if they are not willing to spend an exorbitant amount of money, when not a single penny of that money would actually go to support Mr. Ott? I think that this is a very important issue when considering the piracy of out-of-print books.

Another important point to consider is why the book is out of print. Ott is an avid bibliophile, and treasures rare and hard-to-acquire books... and this seems to have influenced his choice in how Shamanic Snuffs was published. The book is beautifully bound, to be sure, and to personally own a copy would be very rewarding indeed. But the book is also only a hundred-and-someodd ages long, but retailed for $160 when it came out if I recall correctly. Judging from the gorgeous binding, I believe the lion's share of this cost went to publishing materials, leaving only a little left over to support the author financially. Had there been a paperback copy retailing for $35, Ott could have received the same per-copy compensation, but in all likelihood would have sold many more copies, and so would have received more overall compensation.

I deeply regret the necessity of pirating out-of-print books... There are many that I wish were still in print, so that I might support the authors... but at the same time I do not think it is ethically correct that access to the information in these books should be contingent on paying money to a third party without supporting the author in any way. If any out-of-print book that I have access to a digital copy of were to see a new print edition, I would purchase it without hesitation. But in the meantime, the best I can do is donate to the authors in the rare cases that there are channels available for donation.

At the risk of redundancy I reiterate: Supporting the authors of books that we find valuable is very important. But if their books are not in print, and as a result there is no way to support the author by purchasing their books, I do not believe it is ethically proper that everyone should be denied access to the valuable works that they have published.


With respect to books that are in print, the issue is obviously different. In that case, the ethics are more directly dependent on individual motivation and circumstance. I think it is entirely ethical to pirate a book in order to determine if it's something that is worth spending money on, if the available information about the book is not sufficient to make that decision for you. For example, I was recently unsure of whether or not Schultes & Raffauf's Vine of the Soul was up my alley. There was not a digital copy around that I could find to check out first, so I ended up getting it through interlibrary loan (a process that takes several weeks) and discovered that it really was not what I was looking for. I am glad I didn't spend the money to purchase it, but I would feel no moral qualms if I had discovered this by downloading a copy rather than waiting nearly a month to peruse a physical copy. Similarly, reviews of Steve Beyer's Singing to the Plants left me unsure about whether I would actually want a copy. A month or so after I heard about it, I happened across a copy by chance at a bookstore, and I discovered that it was precisely my kind of book, and I bought a copy within a few days. Had there been a pirated version available, I would have bought it sooner. It's a rare book that I'll buy sight-unseen purely on the basis of reviews... although I did just that with Snu Voogelbreinder's Garden of Eden (though shipping cost nearly as much as the book itself, which wasn't cheap; I was glad to have the chance to support the author of such a fine work).

If one downloads a copyrighted material for the purpose of determining whether they want to buy a copy, I don't think that is unethical at all. If a person lacks the financial resources to buy a copy of a book, I likewise think it is ethical for them to download it... with the caveat that they should buy a copy when they have the means to if they find the book to be worthwhile.

I've even pirated a copy of the second edition of Pharmacotheon, even though I owned a physical copy of the book before I pirated a digital copy. The organization of the book does leave a little something to be desired, so I like to be able to search the pdf for a particular phrase, then get out my hard copy to read when I've found the section I'm looking for.

In the end, I only think it's unethical to pirate a book if you meet all of the following criteria:

• Can afford to buy a copy
  
• The author would profit from the purchase if one buys a copy
  
• Don't intend to buy a copy if the work is worthwhile and within one's financial means

You have some great points and i like your opinion on this.

Regarding Ott, the best supplier of his works in the States is likely the BPC

they list his snuffs book as being on back order
this is curious because I know they have contact with Ott and they do not list the book as sold out or out of print, at least they have yet to list it as such

Numerous sites list this book as a 1,026 copy limited-edition (some claim even less copies were produced) which I would take to mean it's no longer being printed. It's floating around several sites for hundreds and hundreds of dollars and I guess could technically be considered "backordered" by BPC. All that means is that it's "an order that cannot be currently filled or shipped, but is requested nonetheless for when the item becomes available again."

Perhaps they didn't get the memo?

I've enjoyed the pieces of Ott's work that I've read. However, I can't afford his books and he seems rather intent on limiting their availability, so again, I see no reason to "stop pirating [these] drug culture books."

I have contacted the botanical preservation corps periodically over the last five years or so, each time asking to be informed when they have copies available for sale. I've yet to hear back.

they would be the people to ask

has anyone heard that all the limited edition copies of that book sold?
were there really 1000 people who were willing to pay for it?
I kind of doubt it with the mentality indicated in this thread.

Snozz, BPC places out of print books in the out of print section and involved people who are often in direct contact with Ott. If Ott told them the book was out of print or that no copies were to be made available then they would change the status of the book. I suspect that not all of the limited run was ever completed, due to lack of sufficient demand.

^^^^^ That's not my quote

I think if Entropy has been waiting 5 years without a response, it's a pretty good indicator that the book is not actively being published.

Regardless, I don't want to quibble over details. The book is clearly near-impossible to obtain (available copies on sites like Amazon go for $500). For me, that's a no-brainer, I'm downloading that if I have an interest in it...I simply don't have the resources to obtain it. Piracy here is clearly warranted and is, in large part, a result of the author choosing to make physical copies of the book scarce.

sorry about the quote tag, i removed it.

I disagree with you on this in that because i cannot afford Otts book in question I will not read it until i have a hard copy in my hands either through borrowing it or a future purchase.

I do not believe in pirating things because i cannot afford them.
You are free to believe what you want, but clearly we have very different sets of ethics.