A good observation you raise here, nen888. Point blank, one cannot have consciousness without being aware and conversely, one cannot be aware without possessing consciousness. Or can one? They are not exactly the same meaning in my personal semantics. But what about self-consciousness? Other life forms certainly possess awareness but do they have self-consciousness? This is a significant question.

This speculation could be off base here... since I am but an individual self and most prone to error in interpreting my subjectivity. Above, I described consciousness as an "aspect of awareness, along with mind and self". Honestly, it may just as easily be that awareness is an aspect of consciousness and mind? The specific way we each interpret these words and reason out the concepts associated with them, dictates our personal understanding of them as rational, meaningful ideas. This is apparently so, for what's in a word, after all... subjective interpretation?

I think that one of the most powerful tools we have to understand the nature of our own consciousness and awareness of our own existence, is the practice of meditation, which gradually attunes one to the present moment. Psychedelics are another and in conjunction... we have a unique advantage in our exploration of what consciousness and awareness truly are.

In the eternity of the now, we are quite capable of launching our perception beyond the conditioned response and learned behavior we are so enthusiastically trained to accept. This is the organic nature of reality, however mentally crafted, as translated by our societies consensus about what existence means. It goes without saying, that we need to re-evaluate much of our own habitual modality and break through to a more spontaneous embrace of life. I also do not believe the material plane is like unto a prison, this transient physical existence. It is, as all things are, composed of the very Sacred Stuff (Unified field of Energy), of which the insubstantial, causative Essence is likewise composed of... for All is One.

You are most definitely not nuts my friend It is just very heavy thoughts to deal with... I guess you can think of humans as employees working as the antenna/intermediaries for the great overmind/godhead/universal consciousness, (what some might label simply as God), for the sole purpose of being able to be self aware and experience itself... boy, what a mouthful! Now I hope that made sense!

Also, nen888, I think of consciousness and awareness as one and the same

Peace and happy travelling!

Interesting, because I bet most of us are in this boat. After all, we think in terms of consciousness, unconsciousness, subconsciousness. This creates the conception that awareness and consciousness can be turned on and off, alternately. As either being awake or unawake. Either in the light of awareness or in the darkness of sleep. In lucid dreaming, however, we find that we CAN be aware when we are unconscious. I would further add, that we are also most highly lucid when we enter into supraconsciuos states of mind, or levels of heightened awareness, such as Nirvikalpa Samadhi or Hyperspace.

Shazam!!! Now this opens up an entirely new territory and psychedelic usage can mirror this in many distinct ways. We are awakened within our dream of subjective organization and then suddenly... something else happens and we are aware of another level of being, altogether.

So if we are aware of being conscious, we are alert to the present, which only exists within the time-space continuum, right? What I am getting at is this, without awareness of time, what do we experience? The eternal now? Yes, the intrinsic nature of the present moment, here in the now. And so, when we turn our focus upon this exact point in time, the present, what can we perceive if the lateral continuum of the flow of time and space are erased from our mental fallacy? This is where we approach the Zen notion of stopping the mind or no mind. Awareness is freed from it's fixation on the mental dialogue we perpetual in our brains and we SEE something else.

We may see the unity and the all-pervasive quality of the Divine Being. We may conversely see an intangible void and absolute emptiness. For me, the two are sides of the very same coin. Yin-yang, endlessly turning throughout eternity.

This presence seems alive and existent in all things, material or immaterial, yet is it conscious of being alive as self? Perhaps we experience an awareness which exists on other levels of being, which does not require awareness of ego-self or a gravitational field of self consciousness, to know we actually do exist? Obviously, a person in a coma may experience degrees of self-awareness and self-consciousness on one level of experiential existentialism... but the connection the physical body does not register in the brain in the same manner.

So herein lies a pivotal degree of differentiation. I would take this debate one step further and speculate that both, awareness and consciousness are aspects of self. Like the words, awareness and consciousness, self has it's meaning subject to interpretation.

How do we delineate a reasonable method to distinguish these conceptual gymnastics? As Eoon wisely queries, do other species of life have consciousness and if so, how do we know? Can a rock feel awareness? Does a nebulae have any central gravitational sense of self? I humbly suggest that there exists a condition within the structure of sentient existence, by which we experience self. there are many who proclaim that the human brain is the precise mechanism which gives rise to self and awareness/consciousness. I agree, to some extent, yet I have experienced awareness when my thoughts are absent.

So is it in fact, MIND which creates the physical brain, the state of awareness/consciousness and self? Yes, I believe it is. and in the scheme of things, I would hypothesize that mind exists before any physical manifestation. Whose mind? I am personally leaning heavily towards the universal mind of the Omniself. I am of the belief, that we may be somewhat unique in this manner. For we become increasingly aware of existing, the more developed our central nervous system evolves. So, the symbiotic relationship to material brain and it's connection to mind, is key in this equation. some suggest that in the physical brain, all of these things originate. I believe that is it the other way around. Mind creates all being and so, when our brain evolves sufficiently, we begin to realize the unity and so, express it's harmonious nature. :idea:



I honestly don't know if computers can be conscious, as they are created by organic entities and not organic entities themselves... but it is a most fascinating concept. as many of you recall, in the TV show Star Trek Next Generation, the android Data does indeed possess self awareness and question his/it's existence. This is most worthy of further discussion.

In the esoteric Chinese theology/philosophy of Taoism, there exists the notion of a triad of universal energies. They are referred to as "The Three treasure". These are: Jin, Qi and Shen. In a nutshell, they are all aspect of the Tao or Spirit and subdivide, as they interrelate to the individual human incarnation. For example, Jin is described as the essence in all things. It is existent independent of all things, yet, immanent with all things. Qi is described as the vital energy or if you will, "The Force" hidden within all the universe, as a unified energy filed, which animates all of existence. Shen is described as the human cultivation of these aspects of Spirit or Tao.

It is the synthesis of these three treasures, which culminates in the state of enlightenment. So, when we apply words like: awareness, consciousness or self... we exemplify these characteristics through our mind and being. Without a witness... can we say with any degree of certainly, that anything would exist? without self does anything else truly exist?

Assuredly it would, as this universe is also a multiverse. But one single reference point would be lacking. One less receiver of the current of the Divine Mind. One less witness to the manifestation of the insubstantial essence, hidden within the appearances of all things great or small. It is certainly a paradoxical dynamic but one worth contemplating upon, eh?

Therein lies the beauty... I think of paradox as some kind of wonderful truth where two extremes can coexist to create a greater truth. Instead of saying that everything is one, there is no division or separateness and every thing else is an illusion, how about saying that everything is one but at the same time everything is also separate?

So at our level of consciousness, we perceive things as separate but as you unpeel the layers towards universal consciousness/absolute being, separateness gives way to oneness. Universal consciousness needs our individual levels of consciousness to experience itself and we need universal consciousness to keep everything tied together in unison at a deeper level. You can't have one without the other, a nice paradox really

I find a good parallel and analogy to this is the mandelbrot set; a fractal equation that recedes into infinity. As you zoom in deeper and deeper you get more of the same, zoom out and also more of the same. As far as I understand, if you zoom out enough you get the one big mandelbrot (kinda looks like a buddha shape) which is your oneness and then as you zoom in you keep getting infinite smaller versions receding to infinity endlessly... I find it a great metaphorical device for existence, whenever I watch a movie or clip of a zoom in from the beginning of the one mandelbrot shape into ever increasing smaller ones I get a very eerie feeling that this is as close as maths has gotten to an answer to how reality, infinity and nature might work. Obviously at the moment it is just a theoretical construct

Exactly!

This is why it is such a lovely dichotomy, in-and-of itself. There is the central core of indivisibility residing within each multiplicity of consciousness. Both, divided into the many and quintessentially rooted in the oneness of the Tao. No matter how many subdivisions the force manifests, it remains but one current.

That being said, we exist alone within our own unique microcosm and thus, the need to commiserate with one another about these fine, subtle states of consciousness-awareness. I agree completely and add a silly observation I've had. It emphasizes the need to accept the duality as necessary within the interconnecting Grid of the Oneness. Within each manifestation of the causative Spirit, the limitlessness of God, exists that same essence, unbroken and unlimited in nature, despite the parameters of the confines of the very thought-form of it's own existence. :idea:

When we see the eternal as the ONLY true reality, we deny the variation of the multiverse and it's dynamic interplay with the rest of existence. This is unnecessary, as the unity is never diminished by the multiplicity. Despite my own direct experiences, immersions within the Light of Divine Mind, I want to make it clear that I view all of the universe as the interconnected web of supraconsciousness. The Infinite Grid. No part of the whole is incomplete, within it's unique individuality. Everything reflects the light of intelligence... even chaos, illusion and the emptiness of the Void.

Damn Rising Spirit, couldn't have put it better myself no matter how hard I tried I have yet to have a true union with the infinite, definitely had intimations of it both sober and tripping though. Truth be told, I still feel like I have more work to do on my own level of individual consciousness and reality before I feel ready to expand into the universal consciousness/reality grid but I know that day will come and I look forward to it like nothing else!

Peace and happy travelling

..thank you all for such insightful musings,

While i accept the ONE, the absoulteness, Ω ...
i do these mental exercises to attempt to understand reality as 'usually' perceived. I imagined Awareness as universal (the same You/Me looking out from every
point of you), whereas Consciousness is fashioned through the experience of time and space (the individual point of view). Even in deep sleep, or after death, thereis still Awareness.......the 'Now'.

I believe it was Ramakrishna who described Shakti as this: ..all there actually is is Shakti. Brahma and Shakti are aspects of the same thing. Whereas
Brahma is the unmanifest totallity of all that could/was/is/will be (external to time & space), Shakti is the form that causes manifestation, creating through
Kala (Time)...expanding as space and experience of change..

Similarly the Nag Hammadian Gnostics' description of The Source was that all came from it, are of it, but it is"alien" (close translation) in the absolute sense. i.e. external to time..(and space). The 'space' is the Consciousness out of which arises Mind...

So this is how i get to dualism from the All..

Now i feel like meditating in the bush before trying to describe the concept of the 3rd Principle, (or the void).

I'm no hindu, but there's something significant about the tridents all those multiarmed blue characters carry...

Any musings anyone..?

I like your definition of consciousness, as it incorporates the full range of aspects, which the awareness of the finite self encounters. In other words, the three-fold nature of sentient consciousness or self-consciousness. Those being: unconsciousness, waking consciousness and supracosnciousness. We have a very similar perspective here, for while awareness has a universal quality to it's characteristics, consciousness can reasonably be split into a triad-like cluster of partial views and distinct aspects of the reality being perceived subjectively.

Now, if awareness itself, is something akin to light of sonic vibration, it is truly universal/cosmic, for all is composed of light and sound. The parameters of said awareness, however, remain subject to the perception of the individuated manifestation of the self, as witness. So, an igneous rock has it's own parameters and vibrational frequency of awareness, as does a moth or a squid or a dolphin, etc...

WHAT is being perceived through the gate or lens of awareness is myriad in content and impression. This might appear so because of the self observing the phenomenon? Yes. So then, how does one qualify the nature of the self's awareness, when like light, it takes on the form of the mind (or lack of mind) which it passes through? Awareness is like the word, knowledge, in this manner. Neither word implies an objective reality, rather, individuated aspects of particular characteristics, which can apply to any given aspect of the whole or the whole, itself. I do not believe it is objective, in and of itself.

The subject or form of knowledge is relative to the working mechanics of the very mind which holds the thought-form. This is why mystics and sages use terms like: Samadhi, Satori or Divine Rapture to reveal the esoteric meaning of their realizations. In our more contemporary era, it makes a little more sense to utilize terms like: Universal Mind, Omni-consciousness, the Godhead and so on.

Ultimately, or at least as ultimate as we are capable of conceiving of (being transient mortal beings), the definitions are rooted in the holistic essence of the Spirit, so the apply to each aspect of the whole. This conception mirrors many of the world's Sacred scriptures, in it's conclusion that all of created by God and therefore, at it's central axis of being, God is all that exists. Despite the multiplicity of variegated forms, the current in One and so, the One is inherent within the many. The trick is becoming aware of this principle in action.



Amongst this world's organized religious structures, none are so exacting and simultaneously congested, than those of the collective theology of what we currently refer to as Hinduism. It contains multiples of interweaving belief systems, within its vast cosmology. Even amongst Hindus, there exists a wide girth of alternate philosophies, however united in the primary idea of the Dreaming Brahman. Now, from the existential stance of Advaita, there exists ONLY the Self in it's unbound glory. Despite the appearances of the duality of existence, it remains anchored in it's INDIVISIBILITY. so what lies between the absolute causative essence and the mind of mankind? Mind.

So we can reasonably relate what you speak of here, by adding Atman to the equation, along side of Brahman and Shakti. This mirrors the Taoist notion of "the Three Treasures" or Jing-Qi-Shen. Jing is the quintessence of being, Brahman. Qi is the energy which dances throughout all of manifest existence, Shakti. Shen is the spiritual "enlightenment" of the dreamer of the paradigm or Atman realizing his/her true nature in Ishvara. Ishvara could be likened to the epiphany of Christ or the opening of Buddha Nature? Yes! The symbiotic interplay between the Divine and the individuated, incarnated soul. Atman is intrinsically born of Brahman, as expressed by Shakti or Divine Lila... the Dance of God. What I have a predilection for referring to as, The Awakening of the Omniself.

Likewise, we could apply this perspective to the Christian notion of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God, the manifested universe and the enlightenment or universal mind of the awakened dreamer. God being the initiative force, however, remains always One within the many. It is within the mind, that these subdivisions exist. Empty the mind and another sort of perception blossoms out of nothingness. No mind.


Mind, like time and space... expands exponentially as it moves through the universal manifestation of the multiplicity of the myriad levels and planes of being. The Dance of Lila. It acquires is subjective perception when it takes on the form of the being who perceives through it's lens, yet, remains free of limitations on the internal spiritual plane of being. We can only speculate about such things, but when one considers the characteristics of That which initiated the quantum fluctuations, by which the universe was birthed, we come to the point of the void. The insubstantial, transcendental being, which can be labeled Divine, cannot be spoken of. This is not something which we can realistically discuss, as it exists in unbound formlessness and complete unity of being. It is, quintessentially, beyond words.




Agreed. I feel that when one wishes to approach the idea of the Void... we must stop the mind. For when one exists in a subject-object oriented state of mind, one cannot transcend the dichotomy of self and Self. there is only Self, despite the appearances of our illusory perception of reality. this s one reason the Hindu concepts can be applied to the manifestations of consciousness. Taoism and Chan/Seon/Zen Buddhist theologies do not make intellectual constructs pertaining to the insubstantial void. while it's a nothingness, it is not the no thing that we could ever possible conceive. we can, as you suggest, silence our thoughts and reflect it's formlessness. In so doing, we gain an insight into the Oneness. Through immersion within the Clear Light of the Void, we are shattered, so to speak, and are reborn without preconceived notions of what is. this attunement takes place beyond the realm of the ego, therefore, it is not something which can freely be discussed. Still, we try...

We "try not to try", as Alan Watts used to say. And in trying to exist in the center of this moment, without definitive parameter or subjectivity... we enter into the now. All that is... is existent in the now. We are gifted the chance to utilize our awareness to zero-in on this level of reality and find the unseen essence, therein. Ain't life grand?