I don't know. Most people aren't scientists. So many technologies have been invented over the last hundred years, but the reality is, only a tiny percentage of the population had anything to do with these inventions. Some of the major inventions like electricity, phone, internet, cars, trains, planes, satellites. Do most people even know how these things work? The great, and unfortunate thing about science is that if technology is made available, everyone can benefit from its use, without understanding the technology. On the other hand, anyone can use technology for bad as well, or to live lives of over-consumption and ignorance.

Great points: Apoc, Ray of light, and Digi. One of my past reflections i had a while back, was about " man's need to re-connect with nature". Or to be true reflections of their abilities.

- One of those insights was about just how anyone can buy anything these days as long as they have the money to do so. Without respecting the technology and amount of work and heartache that has gone into producing it. Such as a laptop, mobile phone, even guns, etc. We live in a throw away society, and are able to buy things that we could never make ourselves, cannot understand, can easily misuse,etc

- One of my other thoughts was that perhaps the reason why there is such stresse's in todays life , is because of man's lack of true control. Ie, perhaps man only deserves what he can make. Maybe man can only be at peace when he builds his own house out of rocks and trees, and mud. Maybe he needs to grow his own food, and slaughter his own animals, fish his own fish. Maybe he needs to live with this TRUTH relationship for his benefit of real, "just" self esteem and mastery, and that of the world,etc.

-Just an old thought "revisited".

I agree with you on that , I get true satisfaction when I do and understand things myself. seems to me the throw away society is a real shame but I think there is a purpose to all of this though, Its hard for me to believe that whatever created us would be able to screw anything up.

But how many knowingly or unknowingly follow the scientific method?

Sure, everyone has different needs. A couple of my closest friends feel the need to go 'off the grid' for extended lengths of time.

It's not for me. The grid gives me more pleasure then stress. I like a good multi-day backpacking trip but a year off the grid would not be satisfying to me. Have you ever tried going 'off the grid?'

i've been on and off of the grid. I prefer the middleground. I think the it's the way to go!

This. I think such dichotomies (as OP's between science and psychedelic experiences, but more generally between the material and the spiritual, or between the concepts of man, nature and divinity), even if they seem a clear representation of the obvious truth, are only mental constructions, hence "unreal" or "illusory" if one would try to think about the reality as a whole.

The dynamics and interconnectivity of these worlds/systems becomes clearer the closer you study them, and the boundaries are increasingly blurred. A very interesting perspective on this topic is expanded by Ken Wilber in "No Boundary".

The middle ground is the way to go for most things in life, including this very discussion.

It's strange how man has to push his limits, and climb the highest mountains...to realise that he never needed to do so in the first place. I guess perspective is what man needs..

- And psychadelics may be the perspective that man needs...

Man has an innate drive to explore and push boundaries. It's why we figure out the structure of DNA, and smoke DMT.

/end thread.

MMMM...Does man really need to "figure out dna", when on Ayahuasca,etc, he sees it with his own eyes???:idea:

-As the saying goes, "seeing is believing".

Another analogy might be this: In Psychotherapy Why can Ayahuasca or other powerful psychadelics "hit the spot", in as little as one session, that years of psychotherapy sometimes don't even touch??

-I think a lot has to be said for the "felt prescence of experience", rather than the words of others,etc...

What do you mean with "figure out dna"? Of course man needs to figure out DNA, it is the single most important chemical constituent in the chromosomes and is the material that our genes are made of - as I am sure you are aware. The modern scientific discovery of DNA and its functions and properties is one of the most significant biological discoveries of the 20th-century. This discovery has had a tremendous impact on science and medicine; everything from identifying genes that lead to the devolopment of diseases to producing pharmaceuticals that treat them.

The discovery has allowed modern medicine and genetic research the improved ability to diagnose a variety of diseases, detect genetic predisposition to disease, create new drugs to treat disease, use gene therapy as treatment, and design "custom drugs" based on individual genetic profiles. This gives hope to patients with diseases once considered impossible to treat. The effects goes beyond this as well; cloning, paternity cases, determining the guilt or innocence of suspects in criminal cases, identifying victims and much more. The "need to figure out DNA" in a thorough and scientific way lets us apply knowledge to understand our immune systems better, cancer, ourselves and the whole of life.

A vision of the DNA structure with ayahuasca, even though it is pretty cool, does not give any of these things..

I think it's the other way around: Where the science stops, the psychedelic experience starts.

That's true, Citta, and cannot be denied.

-However, is man treating diseases caused by an unnatural diet, and lifestyle of so called modern day mankind is the question
i do believe that Psychadelics have also been used to find bad members of societies, as well as cure diseases, etc.

-Perhaps mankind has simply relaced Psychadelics with DNA research instead ??

--Who knows where we would be at today is Psychadelics had been researched all that time ago, instead of banned??

>All i know is that strangely, the modern day scientific community is VERY interested in researching these plants, that were once looked down on as the "work of the devil" by the catholic church.

--I wonder if human beings need proper nutrition to fully develop in all aspects. If this were the case perhaps there would be little space for dis-ease, especially if psychadelic use was maintained as a sort of protection and also source of diet information as well as suitable partner information. This would mean more of a chance for healthy offspring. Better to prevent than cure like modern man these days does, i suppose.

cure diseases? in what way?
I'd like to see which diseases psychedelics have cured, that's a new one to me.
some psychedelics may bind DNA, but several molecules do; this isn't magical. DNA has an electron-rich backbone, of course it's going to attract proton-donors.

DNA research is far more important than psychedelic research, it's not even a matter of debate.
making the human genome sequence a more affordable application is something that will have a more beneficial impact on human evolution than any plant, you can bet the house on it.

Personally i think psychedelics have the strongest placebo healing effect of any medicine, and in that sense they can be used in a safe setting with little to no detriment to somebody's physical health and a GREAT potential for benefit to mental health.

Exactly benzyme.

Some people here need to stop romanticizing psychedelics and the past so much. They are not the end-all answer to the problems of mankind, they cannot heal everything, and they are not more important than scientific, political and medicinal progress that tries to tackle our real world problems. Believing that they do shows only ignorance and naivety. No one will solve our problems by sitting on their asses getting high like a mountain on mushrooms or DMT or whatever. Yeah sure, some people may get inspiration to live better lives, and this is good, but that does not mean that psychedelics is the answer. Shit is alot more complicated than that.

I seriously find this attitude rather disturbing, and I really hope that people can snap out of it a little bit and take psychedelics for what they are and not believe they are so much more. Find some balance in your beliefs and opinions, the world needs it.

Sorry in advance if this came out wrong or harsh, I mean the best =)

You're totally right, putting faith and power into some kind of mystical outside experience takes away from your PERSONAL power and understanding of this universe, which is not specific to the context of the psychedelic experience.

Or rather, your personal power sticks with you no matter what your experiences are, and is a means for you to interpret and understand the experiences you have, psychedelic or otherwise. But by putting the power onto "god" or "magic" or some other kind of imaginary fairy you are ridding yourself of your ability to interpret, dissect and ACT in a situation.

What does that mean, "strongest placebo healing effect" ?

the relevant issue is application.
if psychedelics affected everyone in a predictable spiritual manner, there might be more of a case in psychotherapeutic applications.
of course, this isn't the case. many people use psychedelics with no interest in pursuing them for self-improvement. not everyone gets a "spiritual epiphany" from them.