Well, there you go. That is reasonable advice.

Good stuff so far -- I just wanted to pop in to say that even healthy minds can benefit from some professional help. I went to a counselor for a while back when I was living at home and not getting along with my mom, she asked me to go and I was like sure. It was awesome. They were a really good receptive listener.

That was very healing, everytime I read this thread I feel more grounded, knowing I'm not alone, I'm not the only person in this world who took spice.

Thank you all

When I was struggling with my own existence, I tried to watch new movies, hear new music and do all kinds of new stuff i had never done before. Since I thought that if all of my life was imagination or otherwise not real, I possibly couldnt experience new stuff, and by experiencing all kinds of new stuff I knew better. Though at some point, I realized that it didnt even matter if everything was real or not. There was no way of possibly knowing if all this is "real". It was the overall experience of life that mattered, and life was and is awesome.

Also I noticed that my old pal weed was making everything worse, so cutting it off for few months helped a lot too. It has now been over 6 months since I had any panic attacks or any other difficulties with my thought processes and all, and I can say that having a crisis actually made me stronger in the long run, and I gained whole new aspects to life. I view my everyday world and life in a whole new way, and I appreciate every second of it more than I ever did.

So anyways. I hope all the best for you kinkyking, and Im sure everything will work out fine for you eventually.

Real? What is reality?

Is a dream real?

You are real. Maybe you can ask yourself what "you" really are...but stating that you are not real, or that existence is an illusion, is absurd.

What you perceive is real. The toughts you have about what you perceive are also real...although they could be wrong.

A dream is real. You can wonder what dreams really are...but saying that they don't exist would be silly.

Ever heard about lucid dreaming? Some people try to recognise when they are in a dream state so that they can travel withing the dream world and alter it as much as their will and focus permits it.

Why don't you try lucid living? Waking up could be interesting, but you have an interesting experience to enjoy here and play with (within the limits than have been set up). Take your time, there is no hurry. Just flow along the current and love what you see along your path.

Exactly. The view that there is no such thing as reality is only true when you wouldn't care about stepping in front of buses.

Really??? Have you not seen/read any of the other harm reduction threads or even the replies to other, similarly worded posts? This is not the place for the hippy-dippy happy go-lucky "your reality has the meaning you ascribe to it" bullshit. At the point where someone is experiencing a breakdown in their daily reality...DO NOT come along with absurd suggestions and advise that they "try lucid living" or other ridiculousness. If you don't have something constructive to contribute to this discussion, please refrain from posting.

I think the idea behind this is, that a strongly relativistic perspective can be very comforting in a way. I know it helped me. Still, i have to agree that this post did not aknowledge the scale of the problem discussed in this thread. Having consentual reality broken down can't be solved by lucid dreaming im afraid. But thinking about the nature of reality and considering different ideas is part of the integration process in my opinion.

Hopefully all these different thoughts and sensations will settle, kinkyking. and form something new and beeautiful. Dark Matter propably wanted to help with the incredible tension the threadstarter feels...and i also think that concentrating on the beauty of life and its possibilitys is better than focusing on a sickness.

...that being said, im happy to learn that this thread helped you, kinkyking.
Please keep us updated on your progress, so we can all learn from it

Exactly My Smelf!
You see Uncle Knucles I too have been in search of the "One, Objective Truth",
but more and more I'm starting to wonder; Is there really such a thing as consensus reality?
Sure we have a great number of commonalities in our subjective experiences, but is that really enough to prove there is an objective reality?
We people have alot of Commonalities in our Subjective experiences of Nocturnal Dreaming too, but Dreams are about as Subjective an experience as they come.
Look Kinky, we Nexians are having a massive Existential Crisis too. It's allright if it is a fascinating, joyfull and stress-free existential crisis

I was saying that the "being-laughed-at-while-tripping-monkeyballs-at-Highschool" scenario that KinkyKing described seems no Experience, and thus no Reality at all. Instead it seems to be an imagined scenario that he interprets as being real/cannot distinguish from his actual sensory experience.
If he experiences reading this topic behind his PC; then surely that is real, because it is his experience.
If he was having Actual sensory experiences of both described scenarios and couldn't tell which one was the "real" one, then indeed I reckon he would be Schizophrenic; Meaning he would be lost in an alternate Reality, truely indistinguishable from what we would call "Physical/Consensus Reality".

His condition doesn't come across schizophrenic, but does sound a little psychotic; Meaning he is lost in thoughts and scenarios of his mind's (mostly fearfull)imagination.
I have experienced this myself more than once and more than a little; There's a way out of this fearfull state of mind.

That's why, Kinky, I ask you if you can analyse the 2 scenarios( Reading this Topic and Being laughed at at school) and tell us if you can tell any obvious differences between the 2? I reckon that Reading this Topic is a very rich, detailed experience, whereas the "Goofing out at school" scenario cannot possibly be as real; Do you hear people laughing? Do you actually see a classroom around you, if only glimpses? Or is this latter scenario only a very powerfull train of thought?

It sounds like you're affraid of being stuck in a very elaborate dream or vision of your own imagination.
The only way you could be physically in 1 place, yet have a very rich, realistic experience of being at a very different place, in a very different situation would be either if you are Dreaming or if you've gone into a Coma; In either case you'll be safe in a bed.

So don't worry too much and enjoy the experience you're having the best you can.





PS:About Schizophrenia. I've lived with a severely, chronically Schizophrenic guy for quite a couple of months. Good ol' Loonybin times.
Someone who's schizophrenic is not dissociated from Reality as someone who Dreams would be, but rather experiences "Physical/Consensus Reality" + an extra added layer of "hallucinatory" Reality and is not able to distinguish the 2. They seem to be in 2 realities at once.
Allthough they may have short Dissociative episodes, Schizophrenics are not known to walk into walls or trafic.
They still percieve the Physical world, allthough distorted and "richer"(for lack of a better word)
They percieve things we, not-schizophrenic people, don't percieve, but it's not so that they do not percieve what we do percieve.

The only way people can be completely dissociated from physical reality and yet be physically active enough to walk in front of Traffic is if they took 10 blottertabs of LSD, significant doses of Deliriant drugs or extreme doses and combinations of alcohol, benzos, amphetamines and PCP.

Sorry if the way I write things isn't appropriate. I figured people on here (including the thread starter) are intelligent enough to understand basic metaphors and comparison... Also, I doubt you can get someone out of a philosophical dilemma with strictly practical advices. His problem seems to be more philosophical in nature than medical/neurological... (but I'm no doctor). He focuses too much on meaning and abstractions while all the goods are straight in his face. It's good to question "reality", but eventually it's ok to stop doubting everything and try to see the beauty around you.

What I mean by "lucid living" is to stop puting so much attention on your philosophical dilemmas and explore the world a little bit. If enjoying life is hippy bullshit, then fuck... I don't know what to say.

I've been where he is right now (and we're probably a bunch on this forum to have been that much "on the edge" )... And I know acceptance and appreciation of everyday life helped me much more than medication or some kind of doctor. Not saying a doctor (psychiatrist, psychologist, whatever...) can't help... but they can't help if you don't want to be "here" in the first place.


...

But yeah, maybe no comparison with dreams next time if that's what bothers you, Snozzle? I didn't mean to say that reality is a dream... simply trying to say that if Kinky has a problem differentiating reality from a dream, maybe he can first try to enjoy reality a little more and then maybe these questions won't trouble him that much.

I think reality may be a little more complex as what you describe: there is in a sense only subjective reality, yet you can objectively say things about subjective reality of wich the fact of it's existence is an objective reality. Reality has both objective as subjective sides but they can be distinguished and have their own margins.
The whole concept of relativity is about objective reality, but how the margins of that objectivity are set. The fact that those margins do exist means that within those margins, there is a great deal that can be said objectively and even with great precission.
The phrase "there is no such thing as reality" is a contradiction in itself.

I think art meant that metaphorically: there are various ways in wich people can severely hurt themselves or others as a result of being lost in 'another reality'. You could kill someone because you think he's possesed by demons or cut yourself to get rid of the bugs aliens implanted in your body.

If people are being treated properly they can be stopped from doing such things and live a normal live.

Would you say that you should not do that but 'respect their view on reality' and not help those people?

It may very well be true that there is no such thing as objective reality. As living human beings, we’ll never know, since we can only experience subjectively. We only have subjective experiences – we infer an objective reality, but cannot “see” it. Objective reality is an abstraction used to make sense of the stream of our own conscious experiences.

However, our subjective experiences have structure, and exhibit patterns and relationships among themselves. As a result, we can be fairly confident in many of our predictions regarding our future subjective experiences.

If I step in front of a fast moving bus, I know I’ll be injured – maybe I’ll break my leg (or worse). My subjective experiences may consist of extreme pain and permanent disability. The experience of being hit by a bus and severely injured is, like all other experiences, purely subjective. I can’t say if the bus is “real” or the pain is real or if my broken body is real. But the subjective experiences are real, and I’d rather not have such subjective experiences, so even though I can’t be certain about the ultimate “realness” of things, I can be very certain about what sorts of subjective experiences I’d rather not have.

Thank you everyone for all the good replies, I have found myself in this situation often and need to remember to still focus on my life and enjoy it, it does not have to be a bad thing and a mess, or a mindfuck, thought it may be fun, terrifying or boring we are here and we experience life.

Update:
After googling a bit, found out my problem is called Derealization. Then I was having insomnia too, so guessed my melatonin production would have been reduced. decided to take melatonin supplements to cure the insomnia (1.5mg pills), then to my surprise, the derealization stuff was vanished the morning after I woke up!!

I don't know what's the problem with me, but whatever it is, that's related to brain chemistry (and somewhat permanent), because when I don't take melatonin pills, both the insomnia and derealization return.

I think my pineal gland produced more DMT, and less melatonin, and taking melatonin pills either reduces the production of (oh a deja vu!!) DMT in the pineal gland, OR more melatonin masks the effects of the excess DMT; either way that does the job for me.

From this I do conclude that melatonin helps in reversing some psychedelic induced problems.

But I don't like to get hooked on melatonin pills for the rest of my life. I want to be able to sleep without taking any pill or herb.

Perhaps what I need is visiting a Neurologist instead of a Psychiatrist?

I'm glad you're feeling better. Instead of making up pseudoscientific theories about the pineal gland though, just go and speak to your doctor!

In the meantime, maybe try and slowly ween yourself off the melatonin by taking a very slightly smaller dose every night (grinding bits off the tablets to reduce dose maybe)? 1.5mg is already a small dose... some people take 5mg a night for months on end just as a supplement. Then you might be able to get back to normal without losing sleep etc?

Have you tried alternatives to help you sleep?

For example you could:
Try doing some work-outs early on in the day, maybe in the mornings, and then try helping yourself to wind down in the evenings by not watching tv or listening to agitating music like two hours before you go to bed or so, and maybe also get away from the internet for a while before you sleep. Instead read a book or meditate, draw, paint, write a journal... do something where your mind can find rest and is not constantly subject to massive amounts of input.

Absolutely at no time during the day take any sort of caffeine or caffeine related compound.
You might also want to look into dietary supplements, herbs that can help you sleep like hops or... ask someone who knows about this...
also diet in general can affect your bio-rhythm so maybe consider trying some sort of healthy diet. At the very least watching your diet by changing it to a more restricted form will make you more aware and that alone can alter your rhythm.

I'm sure some type of yoga or chi-gong could also benefit you, and if it doesn't directly help your condition it's still awesome to do
in a holistic approach, to restore balance in the brain chemistry you could try to attain balance in your body (yoga, tai chi, chi gong, sports in general, diet) and your mind (meditation, keeping a journal, contemplation...) and even externally in social situations. Even if none of this helps directly it certainly won't harm you or anyone, but probably more the opposite, so maybe it's worth a try

anyway those are my thoughts on the matter

hope your life improves constantly one way or the other,

much love
Enoon

"1.5mg is already a small dose"

If you do some research you will find that that is actaully a gaint dose. mg doses of melatonin are way way larger than endogenous ammounts as melatonin is active in picograms. I can have effects just as powerful as 1-2 mg with like less than 100mics.

I will try dividing the pills to fragments and see what happens tonight.

BTW does tolerance build up toward melatonin in time?

Im not sure about tolerance. You can order cherries that contain melatonin though in picogram doses. They are sold as melatonin supplements and are just dried cherries. The dose is way way below that of the mg pills I used to have, but they still are active for me. Strangley enough though my results are different from yours, where I find they sort of increase some sort of endogenous tryptamine production at night that resembles DMT. Now I take a very light dose of harmalas with a light dose of melatonin every single night with very interesting effects. At times I wake up in the night in the peak of an experience that resembles an ayahuasca peak. Im probly having 3-5g of caapi only with the melatonin but I think the other neurotransmitters that are secreated at night synergise.

And could you ever end up in an endogenous bad trip in the middle of the night that way? similar to an intense aya bad trip?