Thank you guys for the support. I really do appreciate it.

I knew this would be a hard sell to the community at large, based on the types of responses I've received in the past when trying to address it. It's a mystery to me, quite honestly, how it is that this viewpoint exists here. The responsible answer seems very self-evident. Maybe I'm just off my rocker.

I just hope that we don't - all of us - become complicit in somebody's tragedy. That we will, in time, is feeling to me like an increasing inevitability.

This isn't really about conventional vs alternative medicine at all. It's about being responsible for one another, and not forgetting that behind each avatar is a real person who is here because they are ripping a hole in their psyche on a regular basis. And whereas it may be true to say that only a fool would take medical advice off an internet forum, there is also an unusual level of trust on this one, because we have all been party to the wonders and sometimes horrors of hyperspace - we come here because often there is no-one else who understands.

We all happily tell one another about our symbiotic relationships with the mantoids, or journeys to other planets. We discuss the intentions of the elves and wonder why the hell there are fucking jesters everywhere. Some might consider this madness - but here, we get it ... and we shoudl also try to be tuned in to when someone is in a bad place.

So when someone starts losing their grip, I really believe we have a responsibility to one another to offer good advice - most of the time, that's what I see. Remember joebono's post about being God? Mostly the responses were along the lines of, dude, maybe lay off the psyches for a bit, and get your feet back on the ground. I thought that was a good thing; and so, it seemed, did joe.

And Pandora - you are an experienced traveller of these magical realms, as well as a person who has experienced a great deal in your own life. Your advice, as far as I have read it, is always considered and intelligent - never reckless, and never apparently without regard to the welfare of the person who you are advising; quite the reverse.

That's the point, I think. This is incredibly powerful stuff, and we are using it to explore our deepest psyche. It can take a toll; it can push some over the edge, and many of us have times when it is hard to come back to Earth and deal with the day to day of cleaning out the monkey cage.

And though everyone here does this by their own choice, and each of us is ultimately responsible for our own actions, I really believe we need to be responsible in how we respond, and consider the consequences. Not because anyone is going to take us to court for it; but because we are human, fellow travellers, and we need to give a fuck about one another.

So it's not about laying down rules; it's about considering whether your post is in tune with the wonderful general attitude that makes this Nexus the special place it is.

[quoteIt seems to me that a little confusion has arisen though, from my understanding of Art and jbark's position. I honestly do not think that any of the advice Pandora provides, fell within the purview.][/quote]

I agree, this should be made more clear by art. I don't believe he means general health advice since we have a sub forum for that:


Help and Advice for Healing
If you are drawn to Ayahuasca and DMT for healing, post about it here and let the community help you

But to be honest, im getting tired of this discussion as i feel great arrogance coming across.

Whatever, pal. I've said my piece and you've said yours. Clearly this is a dead rotting horse as far as the community is concerned, so I see no need to keep flogging it just for the fun of continuing the argument.

For the record, I have no concerns whatsoever about Pandora's advice to the lovelorn and headachey. What I object to (and this is the last time I'll revisit it here in this thread) is you and your ilk telling young bi-polar Norwegian dudes to go off their meds and keep tripping.

If you can't see the distinction between the two, nothing I have got to say will likely make much of a difference. Hopefully you are right and I'm wrong, and no one ends up getting hurt.

If you don't mind me asking, why Norwegian?

First thing that popped into my head. Don't have a cow, my friend.

Still... Just in case - stay on your meds and stop tripping.

My medicine is pure air. You can laugh if you want, but believe me, a great portion of the trouble in todays world is caused by an inability to breathe correctly. My other medicine is entheogens. I don't need the pharmaceutical substances that only treat the symptoms, never the underlying cause.

With that said, I have to a certain degree agree. It is not advisable for anyone on psychiatric medications to suddenly stop taking them. It is, however, advisable to search out alternatives to such medications. This should be done with caution, and one should never attempt to treat oneself with entheogens, if one does not know what to do or how to do it. It is MANY cases of people that have attempted this and only resulted in a worsened illness, including people here on this board.

Peace and well-being to all of you, psychiatric patients or not!

SWIM works with chronically mentally ill people every day... this is not true... you dont just become schizophrenic because of some psychedelic or circumstance. its a pre-condition that your born with. people can become psychotic for all kinds of reasons and psychosis can mimic all kinds of schizophrenic symptoms, but your not going to just become schizophrenic due to entheogens... meth maybe or speedy E abuse... but then we are looking at a more feasible schizoaffective disorder with psychotic features or psychosis NOS perhaps...

an early intervention is not going to prevent some one from being schizophrenic. your schizophrenic for life and you where going to be the day you where born.

people can have a psychotic reaction to an entheogen that can have long lasting effects. But it will not make them schizophrenic. more then anything they are just having trouble intigrating their experience which can be taken care of in all sorts fo differant ways... OR they where prepsychotic, and inevitably where going to be schizophrenic and all it took was some sort of trigger to set it off.

This is how its seen in mental health.

psychosis induced by an entheogen can be traumatizing. Its true people need to be sensitive to people who have had a traumatizing trip. but honestly there are not to many professionals out there that can help some one that has had one. Honestly places like this are a good place for people to go who have had this sort of trauma. trying to see if the person is chronically ill though is hard to assess online.
once again my caveat.
but really people who need to sort things out and dont need to go to a mental health facility should be able to find sanctuary here.
figuring out the difference takes time. this used to happen when SWIM used to mod on the aya forum a lot. the community there took time to figure it out and mods would have a hell of a time trying to figure out what to do with these individuals. But eventually people figured out that they where seriously sick people and guide them to the right resources.


ALSO i have to add that there are many cultures that do not have shamans and they do not have community mental health programs... what they do have is a community that has a vested interest int he mutual well being of its members... those communities are by far more healthy mentally then communities that have mental health programs and psychiatry. If you dont believe me go to Indonesia after a tsunami.

Excellent point - I hope that's what we have here as well.

much love

**BUMP!**

I'm bumping this thread, in light of recent information about Vlad committing suicide. Now, Vlad was not a regular contributer here and he was only around very briefly. But if it's true that he did in fact kill himself after coming here seeking advice, I think we have GOT to take a very hard look at our culpability in these situations.

I pissed off some people last time around and expect that I will again. But as 1) Pandora has recently opened up an avenue for discussion of harm reduction, 2) this horrible news about Vlad has only just now been discovered, and 3) everyone's pissed off already, it seems appropriate to bring it up once again. Honestly, the whole issue makes me more than a little bit angry.

When we were crafting the Health & Safety section, I wrote copy for it saying very explicitly that we do not dispense anti-medical/anti-pharmacological advice. The language was softened because many here felt that their wizardly ways were somehow in danger of being censored or otherwise stifled. In the end, I was overruled - but this was prior to a member killing themselves. I think there is no longer any room whatsoever for compromise on this issue. I would like for the community to come to consensus and enforce a clear cut policy. Otherwise, it will happen again - and I don't want any part of that.

This thread is one that I remember being involved in. I bring it up only because it is related to the current discussion and reveals the varying viewpoints of Nexus members regarding psychological problems and their treatment.

Someone (a member called “avatar”) claimed to be “possessed” by evil spirits of some sort, he was hearing voices, etc. all while NOT under the influence of any psychoactive substances. Someone else suggested that taking saltwater baths was a good way to rid one of evil spirits. I suggested that “avatar” see a mental health professional, and was severely criticized by a few members as a result.

Anyhow, read it if you’re interested in seeing a real-life example of this sort of thing.

I get sick to my stomach every time I see some irresponsible member advise against medical help when it's clear there's a problem.

Also, this talk about "The drug companies are all out to get us" is complete bullshit and needs to stop. Just because some college freshman decides to go vegan and gets his first medical marijuana card doesn't mean he should buy into and advocate the evil doings of Western medicine.

There's science behind mental health treatment. Harm prevention should be first and foremost on our minds as a community.

Where does our advice start/end ? At nutrition? changes ? At non mental medical conditions ? At paranoia ? At full blown craziness ?

I think people should ask themselves "Am i entitled to give advice?". If something has healed or at least helped me, it would be a crime not to be able to share it with someone seeking help. Yes, were does it start, were does it end? People are talking about their healing experiences here all the time. It's one foot this community stands on. If we weren't allowed to give medical advice...then that would mean to fully trust the goodwill of mainstream medicine. That would be pretty foolish. Not only because it does not fully account mental phenomena, but also because profiteering from socially sanctioned drugs is a big part of the game.

That does not mean that i'm completly against regular doctors. To me, they are one option out of many. Seeing a regular doctor could be worth a try in some cases. In others, it's propably not so advised.

If i'd be shocked to see entitys on my spice voyages, i would certainly not go to a psychiatrist so he can prescribe me drugs to numb my brain. Sometimes, the community, a shaman...someone who can put your experience in a meaningful context is worth a lot more. Yes, i believe medical doctors can do damage in cases of spiritual growth. I recently read an interesting article in "anthropology of consciousness" were the author advised to treat people in spiritual crisis as people who are in liminality:

http://www.google.com/ur...Ar339SKqJ4ug&cad=rja

It very much resonated with me.

That being said, my opinion stands. Medical doctors do not have the monopoly and healing. While they might help in some cases, they can be damaging in others.

Every case is different.

Do you think this is not clear enough and it should be worded differently, art?

I think to me its pretty clear, if I see someone giving irresponsible advise such as suggesting abruptly stopping psychiatric treatment, I will edit the post and add a big warning linking to the health and safety section and send a pm to that person. If someone carefully discusses about a medical case without giving medical advice in an absolute way, and adds disclaimers and makes no irresponsible advice, I wont have a problem, maybe I'll post something to complement or make the person's post clear?

So for example, an open philosophical discussion about the nature and necessity for pharmaceutics is one thing, but telling someone specific to immediately quit it is something else much more problematic. Or for example asking a person with a specific case about their treatment, and suggesting that they try to find out what are the mid and long-term plans of the psychiatrist, maybe if it is going well the treatment and the doctor decides it is right, ideally one could eventually diminish medication intake slowly, substituting with other less intrusive treatments, and with close watch from doctor, can be fine imo, but suggesting the same reduction without being very specific that a close watch from doctor is necessary, that it shouldnt be an abrupt decision, etc, that I would consider a problem.

Where do you get the information that guy killed himself, by the way?

People with medical or mental problems should always consult real doctors and not ask for advice on some forum.

Any advice that doesn't go against this principle can't do much harm. But recommending people to quit their proscribed medication is in my view almost criminal behaviour.

I would like to add one thing that seems very relevant here.

Medication that is being proscribed for psychiatric disorders is not perfect. They often have severe side-effects.
One of the BIG problems with these med's is that they very often don't work immediately but take a period of time before they start to have the desired effects. This can vary from 2 weeks to a month or more.

The side-effects of these drugs though, are often noticed immediately and very often are even at their worst, the first few weeks of use when the therapeutic effects are not noticed yet.

So very often, patients decide for themselves, without consulting their doctors, that their med's aren't working and are only making things worse.
Just like vlad was saying in the thread.

And that's one of the main reasons why so much antidepressants can lead to suicidal behaviour in the first few weeks of use: patients are badly informed and expect to be healed immediately, yet they start feeling worse.

That's the big distress those people are in.

What we should be saying to those patients is: talk to your doctor about this. He will either give you new med's because often, you just have to try different med's before the right ones are found (med's work differently for each person), or he will tell you that feeling worse is just a phase you have to go trhough in order to get better.

Saying that big pharma is trying to squeeze money out of you or that psychiatrists are trying to impose consensus reality upon you is definately not a good idea.
Don't encourage people to quit their treatment.

Honestly Art, if we are the only people the newbie has to talk to regarding an extreme psychadelic experience, what else can we say? NO! NO ADVICE FROM ME! GO SEE A DOCTOR!.....See how ridiculous this is?

What we do when we answer serious questions as such, is utter common sense, resulting in a total collective intelligence...this way, the person has OPTIONS, and doesn't have a licensed physician charging $100 per hour, trying to insist on a certain notion, as well as prescribing a 'new' anti-psychotic to put on top of the kid's already fucked up sense of being...These medical methods have FAILED US, as I can probably guess lots of nexus members have been diagnosed with depression/anxiety/etc., and I believe these people can speak intelligently about what they perceive, already having been down the road of "legitimate healthcare". If you're gonna post a COMPLAINT, why not have a solution? Instead of notifying everyone about how "un-qualified" they are...And dude, you really don't know if one of us is a Doctor or not...we totally could be...honestly, I don't say much about my personal life on here, as with 99% of everyone else....Dude, come up with some SOLUTIONS to your own 'prob' with the way this site is run, don't whine and moan about it out load.

The information was linked in Pandora's thread from Psychonaut.com. Who actually knows if it's bona fide, but it certainly seems like it could be. There was nothing trollish about that guy as far as I was concerned. He was just obviously a deeply disturbed individual, and he got a number of pretty bad tips here.

obliguhl - You were one of the loudest voices for imposing no limitations in this regard. Clearly, your perspective hasn't changed a great deal (if at all) since then, but I would ask you to consider the following: This kid comes here in the midst of what's almost certainly a full blown psychosis, and you tell him that if it were you, you'd put your trust in a shaman rather than a psychiatrist. Well, now he's dead, and "his opportunities for spiritual growth" are pretty much over, I'm guessing. Now, I'm certainly not saying that this is your fault (or anyone else's here) - but you (and others) gave him the dumbest/least helpful/most dangerous advice you could have possibly given under the circumstances.

Pandora - You are the one who is bringing this issue up for further discussion, but your point of view in that previous thread was very, very different. Your whole perspective (along with a great many others' here) was "oh, but we can't stifle the non-traditionalists...". Your posts from that thread have all disappeared, but you were clearly not at all pleased at the time with the idea of your own unique healing methods being somehow brought into question.

What I'm saying is that we can no longer afford to take these risks with others. Conversations in theory about alternate medicines are fine. Concrete advice to avoid medical treatment in favor of bath salts and tripping - NOT OKAY. NOT EVER OKAY. At least that is my firm conviction.

Endlessness - I think that language is fairly clear. I wrote most of it myself. But it was watered down substantially from what I'd originally submitted for posting, because many thought it was too constricting and de-hippyfying for the nexus. "but this fascination doesn’t automatically make us trained health care professionals" for example - that I didn't write. Our fascination doesn't make us ANYTHING but fascinated. We're not doctors. End of story. We're not qualified to dole out treatment plans. We don't make these kinds of determinations about whether or not it's appropriate for people to stay on their medication. If we do, we are culpable - whatever the outcome, and I just won't be a part of something with such a high risk of disaster.

This is something we need to clarify unequivocally going forward. There is zero room for touchy feely compromise, in my opinion.

tobecomeone00 - Don't test me, man. I'm fairly confident you're not a doctor, and I'll "moan out load" if and whenever I feel it's necessary. Count on it.