Thanks to Enoon’s accidental discovery that freebase harmala alkaloids crystallize when in a solution containing alcohol, I’ve done a few experiments.

Here’s what I did:

I started with about 530mg of FV’s Caapi Copy (didn’t want to experiment on my good stuff!). I dissolved it in 10ml vinegar, then added 50ml 91% IPA. I dissolved 1g NaOH in 20ml water, then added this to the alkaloid solution. Next, I added 100ml boiling water.

I let the hot solution cool to room temperature undisturbed, and the result was some very nice crystals! I decanted, added water, decanted again twice more, then dried the resultant crystals.

Other than looking all nice and sparkly, I don’t know if there’s any reason to take this extra step, but it sure does look nice!

beautiful...
so interesting, i want to understand the chemistry of it!

Wow, nice gibran2!!! Really pretty crystals! Personally I think I will add alcohol/IPA to all my harmala extractions from now on, because a) they're so pretty and b) I found them easier to wash/deal with

cheers & love
Enoon

Gibran, was there any yield loss/change from the recrystallization?

I wonder if this would work with syrian rue as well?

I've got a rue extraction in the final stages, so I'll give it a shot in the next day or so and report back.

No discernable loss of yield.

I’m fairly certain that the crystals are just crystallized caapi alkaloids. I tasted some of my caapi extracted alkaloids and discovered that they’re not bitter either. (The alkaloids I extracted from Syrian Rue had a distinctly bitter taste.)

I haven’t tried doing the extraction with sodium carbonate, but I think others have. I don’t remember the results, but I think they’re posted in the extraction thread.

ok, in the last week we got diamond spice crystals and now harmala crystals. Can they be crystallized together?

Very nice. What is the purpose of the ipa? I recall your caapi tek just using acid water, then NaOH, then water washes.

Read the first post.

I repeated my extraction procedure using 400ml of 3% acetic acid and 20-30ml of denatured ethanol from the hardware store (96%?). I also got two layers at first when I added the lye (the top layer was clear and greenish, the bottom layer brown). Then I shook and got some nice, small crystals again. I currently drying in the filter.
Would be nice to find the optimal crystalization-conditions

Considering denatured alcohol contains substances to make alcohol toxic or taste incredibly bitter so it isnt consumed, arent you worried using that for harmala extraction? What is the denaturing agent in that alcohol?

They usually use acetone, MEK or IPA here. Since I'm washing the harmalas I'm not all that worried. Though I would rather use pure EtOH... it's just about 10 times as expensive. Taxes

On trials with IPA, I also had normal precipitation occur if I didn’t add enough alcohol. It seems that with IPA at least, the higher the ratio of alcohol to water, the better.

It might also have to do with the quantity of alkaloids relative to the volume of liquid – too concentrated and it precipitates out prematurely.

By the way – those white snowflakes are very pure alkaloids. I’ve never managed to get them that white!

Usually they float to the top because air/gas bubbles are trapped in them. Giving them a good stir usually helps them to settle. However, if I had such nice white precipitate floating on top, I’d skim it off with a spoon and rinse it into another container.

My caapi extracted alkaloids in freebase form are not bitter. I'll have to sample my rue extracted alkaloids again, but I think they were bitter. I'm wondering if freebase harmaline has a bitter taste?

ime, harmalas extracted from rue are always slightly bitter in the fb form

Ok, so I just did an A/B cleanup on the liquid that was filtered after salting a rue-tea and got the same crystals that mydriasis was talking about in his thread. These are not the IPA-induced crystals, although, from your pictures, gibran, they look pretty similar.

Does anyone know what might cause this? I haven't filtered them yet, but assuming they are like myd's xtals, I expect them to degrade in quality when I do. I just find this really bizarre. Before I filter, I may make some IPA xtals and see how they compare physically.

I don't understand how the crystals would form this way (not that I truly understand how they form in IPA...buuuuuut...)

I’m guessing that it’s all related to solubility. Harmala alkaloids are practically insoluble in water, so if only water is used, the alkaloids will precipitate out almost immediately, not allowing any time for crystals to form.

I think the alkaloids are very slightly soluble in alcohols, and this difference in solubility might slow the rate at which the alkaloids come out of solution just enough to form crystals.

acid was vinegar, base was lye

this was the same procedure I always follow for a/b on rue...only difference was I ran it on the filtered liquids instead of the harmala salts

mydriasis said he got the same xtals doing a STB on some rue, but that they lacked the structural integrity of gibran's once filtered.


I hope this isn't hijacking your thread gibran, if you'd like me to move it I will...I just figured since it was crystal harmala alks it fit here (although I just realized your thread specifically says caapi )

It says caapi only because I used caapi alkaloids. (Actually, I didn’t want to experiment on my caapi alkaloids, so I used some of FV’s Caapi Copy, which I think is derived from rue). The crystallization should work regardless of the source of the alkaloids.