Do anyone here practice non-spiritual meditation or yoga?
Does it exist?

What I mean with non spiritual is void of esoteric stuff like chacras and "mystical" energies etc.

imPsimon, I am by no means an experienced practitioner, but I do, as such things are inconsistent with my scientific-materialism worldview. It's hard for me to reap any effects from such "esoteric stuff like chacras and "mystical" energies etc" if I don't believe they work, regardless of whether they work or not in reality.

Regarding yoga:

Just ignore all the spiritual mumbo-jumbo and concentrate on what's happening in the body.

If you can find the joy in simple body movements, and have these "ahhh"s and "oooh"s as you stretch in the asanas (this very good feeling when a stressful part of the body "opens up" and you feel that it aligned back into harmony), that's a great achievement and a stable base in itself.

Regarding meditation:

As meditation is the practice of awareness, it does not have any spiritual connotations.

(1) you sit
(2) things happen
(3) you notice that a thing just happened
(4) you release the mental construct you created of the thing that just happened
(5) goto 1

There is no room for spiritual mumbo-jumbo here ( if it happens, that's also just a "thing" ).

LOVE IT!! Great descriptive step by step - almost meditative in its simplicity! now, if only it were that easy...

JBArk

Cellux, I don't understand (4), can you explain? Does one need to have eyes open to notice things "happening" or are we referring to thoughts happening as well. Say I have a thought, such as "I am a mushroom growing on a turd," so what construction of the mind am I releasing that pertains to this thought's creation?

Check out Hatha Yoga. It focuses on the basic and more advanced asanas.
Pranayama is the yoga of breathing which is also good to learn so you can find what works best for you.

It doesn't matter if the eyes are open or not. Whichever way you go, things will happen. I'd say try eyes open first and when you have some experience, try eyes closed, to see what's the difference.

"Releasing the mental construct" refers to our tendency to create "after-effects" for every thing that happens. It's not just that the thing arises and then passes away, but with its arising, we immediately generate a lot of stuff from it in order to entertain ourselves, to fill in the void. Mostly these are various chains of associations that derail us from conscious awareness. These mental constructs should also be noticed as "things" and released.

When you have a thought like "I am a mushroom growing on a turd," then two things can happen:

(a) the thought passes away (and another one arises)
(b) the thought drags you down into day-dreaming (awareness is lost)

In the case of (a), you just continue the meditation (watching, being aware of what's happening).

In the case of (b), your awareness ceases, and you cannot do anything about it (as the "you" who would bring it back is lost). Fortunately, there is a mysterious mechanism at play here that warns you after a while that you got off the track: with the help of this alert you can sober up and get back to meditation.

Don't think that (b) is lesser than (a). In the beginning, it's mostly (b). Watching - losing it - time passes - finding it again - go back to watching. This is totally good meditation. With practice, you'll find that losing it is less and less frequent.

I practice Moksha, which is basically a canadian brand of hot ashtanga. I've also practiced Bikram but would not recommend it unless you're into meditation through physical suffering. Not kidding.

Most yoga centers are not about the new agey stuff at all, partly because it doesn't make good business sense. Few people want it.

Hatha yoga is your basic physical yoga, it's rather muscular and usually about proper alignement (depending on who's teaching it to the teacher that's teaching you). Also look for ashtanga vinyasa, which is more cardio, it makes you move around through "flows" and is more centered around the breath. Definitely my favorite. You won't get a quiet meditation there, but you'll get to know your body for sure, and it shows you how to cultivate a calm mind through the activity itself. As a beginner you might simply forget to breathe, for example, and over time you realize how much harder you're making it for yourself when you do that. Avoid Kundalini or any center that offers it. I went to a couple of classes and I usually end up rather frustrated by the non-sense the teachers talk about.

I hear often that yoga is a good preparation for meditation and it makes a lot of sense. Sitting quietly is much easier after the class is over than before it starts.

Part of the fun for me was to shop around and try out the studios around my area. All of them have introductory weeks that are cheaper than actually signing up, so take advantage of that, try stuff out and find what you like.

As far as I am concerned, everything is "spiritual." In some sense everything is empty or devoid of real meaning (only relative) Everything is vibration, or energy, and so, everything is spiritual. 'spirit' is one of those terms which accounts for a great deal of things. You are spirit, and hence spiritual.

But, I wanted to talk about meditation.

Do you guys find that meditation after DMT visions is just as useful? I'm not sure but i think spiritual 'progress' may be made without agents like DMT, entirely!!

It's odd it's like you can get there instantly with DMT, but then your gonna come back.. you're reborn, because everything is a manifestation of this plane of existence, which is eternal. So, We all know when the next eternal buddha is being born because there is a cause for his birthing on the highest plane. At the maximum, all extremes meet and the circle is closed, So, birth, death, samsara... weird things happen on the bhuddic plane!

Can we have a vote - Is it better to make progress with quick and possibly terrifying bursts, or plenty of calculated efforts? we did both, DMt is not neccisarilly a 'fast' route to enlightenment, but ultimately your DMT experiences *will* cumulate in enlightenment, and your consiousness returns to some other activity. ultimately, everything meets.

"non spiritual yoga" doesnt make sense..yoga is a spiritual practice..
What you are talking about sounds like stretching, but it's not yoga. Yoga is an ancient practice rooted in tantric shamanism along with thankas etc, that incorperated the belief in chakra points and alot of it was built around that belief. You cant seperate the 2 IMO and still call it yoga..it's like calling rue ayahuasca..it's not religous but it is a spiritual practice.

It's good to stretch though.

Try searching for "mindfulness"; this is the term that mainstream psychology uses to refer to what would traditionally be referred to as meditative practices.

Yoga is often going to involve 'energy talk'. Just take it as a useful metaphor and don't let loyalty to empiricism keep you from reaping the benefits of ancient wisdom.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nwwKbM_vJc

A good intro

Thanks! Will look into this!

Thanx Fractal, you saved me some typing there

I get what you're saying, I often have this debate with my girlfriend.

I think there have been many incarnations of yoga, and the practice continues to change and branch out. I personally find a lot more spiritual value in focusing on breathing and movement than in surrounding oneself in decorations and music of a culture we can barely begin to understand. The minimalism implied in what some consider "non-spiritual" yoga is actually more conducive of spiritual growth than the clutter caused by taking ancient foreign traditions out of their context in an effort to claim authenticity. In a way, we find ourselves having to reinvent the wheel when it comes to spiritual practice, but how is it spiritual anyway if one doesn't actually feel involved? We tend to be very critical when we appropriate something culturally and change it to make it our own, but isn't that how all spiritual practices came to be and to change in the first place? Yoga is not what it was, neither here nor in India, and I'm glad it isn't, because there's so much more room for each person's baggage now.

Yeah I'm more interested to learn how to stretch well.
I had some romantic idea that yoga was like meditative/relaxing stretching but
I really have no idea what it means.
I work out a lot and stretch but would like to improve on it so I wont damage anything
in the long run.

E-peeps recommend:

Pavel Tsatsouline - Relax Into Stretching
Thomas Kurz - Stretching Scientifically

Sam Harris seems to be a strong supporter of these practices. They have noticeable benefits and it doesn't have anything to do with mystical explanations.

Well, if you read the yoga sutras of Patanjali, it is clearly stated in the 2nd sutra that "yoga is the stilling of the waves of the mind". It also states that if you "get" that sutra, you don't need to continue reading the rest. But, if you read the entire volume, it goes on to describe the myriad forms that yoga can take. But it does not seek to limit what yoga can be. It can be virtually ANY practice that brings the mind to stillness.

I think the many different schools that yoga has evolved into, have imposed their own overlays on the the 2nd sutra, some of it dogma, but other aspects like the yamas and the niyamas (the do's and dont's) are essentially a moral code. The moral code is not for the benefit of others or to maintain a civil society, they are there because when one breaches the moral code, it inflames their mind, which is the antithesis of yoga. So the yamas and niyamas are really just practical advice on how to go about stilling the mind. Nothing more. Some might call this spiritual but that is debatable in the context of the 2nd sutra.

One thing that most followers of the path seem to experience though, it a diminishing of self centered thought and behaviour and in the long term, ego reduction. So spirituality can eventually begin to creep in if you stay on the path long enough

imPsiman - if you are interested in a non secular form of meditation you might explore vipassana meditation, it has its basis in buddhism, but sidesteps much of the dogma. If you are interested in asanas (what most westerners perceive as yoga) you might look into ashtanga yoga, which seems to attract less spiritually minded practitionners than other forms.

Martial arts training can provide a mind/body path without being dogmatic or overly esoteric. If MA interests you, visit many classes/teachers and find a teacher you like; do not hesitate to ask questions of instructors and students. Finding a teacher you enjoy learning from is more important than which particular tradition you study.
Best,
L