Well, i and some others have been extremely critical about any report, attempt or claim made that mentions 'heroic' doses.
I made some very cynical remarks and people have been called assholes by me and others.

But the fact is that the issue of 'heroic' doses is not gonna go away. It will keep coming back at us. Over and over again.

I think though, that the majority of DMT users will agree that there is a ceiling to how far you can go with DMT beyond wich taking anymore becomes useless because you'll pass out or your mind will simply shut-off and you won't be able to make any sense of your experience or to recall any of it. I also think that most users will agree that this ceiling is not too high in the sense that it won't allow you to take many times the dose you'd normally need to have, what many call a 'breakthrough' experience.

So it might be usefull for educational purposes to make this clear to any person who's just beginning to discover the strange world of this spirit molecule and to dedicate a thread to this 'dosing issue'.

I think that it will quickly be revealed that no-one considers taking more than 5 times a minimal 'breakthrough dose' doable or usefull. Most people will say that if they normally need 50mg to have this 'breakthrough', they consider 100mg to be extremely strong.The vast people who would normally need 50mg would consider anything over 200mg as impossible or nearly impossible.

I think it's time that the broad consensus on this would be revealed to the public to make it clear to everybody that anything 'heroic' can never lie above a certain range, give or take a few milligrams due to the differences in sensitivity for the substance (some people may need 20mg for a breakthrough and others maybe 60mg, but in the first case someone couldn't take over 100mg without 'disconnecting' and in the latter you shouldn't expect a person to be able to take more than 300mg without 'turning zombie'

I think we will see a broad consensus on this. Some will say you can take twice as much, others 1.5 times and yet others maybe 4 or 5 times before passing out, but you won't see anything spectacularly above that.

I would say that for vapped dmt, if you are needing more than, say, 70 or even 50mg to have at least a VERY strong experience and most likely breaking through, then you are not smoking it right, your dmt is melting through the screen, or its being burned and not vapped, or you are not holding in long enough, or something of the sort. If the person smoking dmt know themselves, have already done higher dosages and are in physically safe place, with good intentions and set and setting, I dont see much danger in 'over-smoking' in one go, because I simply think its not possible. I think that you are far gone before you can 'smoke too much'. In fact I personally just load the vaporgenie with more than I can vaporize, maybe two or three doses, and I just keep hitting it until I cant anymore and am gone, which is never much more than, say, 30, 40mg. Other smoking methods such as joints are incredibly wasteful.

as for oral dosage, the issue is that safety is not only about physical safety in terms of toxicity but also physical safety in terms of dangerous behaviour (i.e. not being able to deal with the normal external world, hurting themselves, etc). Also there is the psychological danger. I can say that, for me, a 200mg oral dosage was very strong and not something I would repeat often, but was positive and learning. I was in a safe place with the most positive set and setting. I wouldnt really go over that ammount. For some other people 200mg might be waaaaaaaaaaaay to much, for others it wont be so much. I think that, specially for oral dosages, it is IMPERATIVE that people go up gradually slowly in subsequent sessions, with increases of 50mg or so at most...

The highest dosages ive ever heard being taken accidentally were around 400mg and every single one of those experiences I've heard they would NOT repeat it, NOT recommend it and so on. I think that its a bit more common that some people's highest dosages were around 200mg, and as I said, thats already way too much for a LOT of people. So whoever is wondering about max safe dosage, dont look at any numbers from someone else but rather in a good set and setting, they should find for themselves with gradual increasing dosages over a few sessions until they find their sweet spot.

Ive been told I maybe had combustion hits on my VG because it takes me more than a grain of rice for me to breakthrough. Others say they can get a good one off of 10mg. But that's IMPOSSIBLE that's just a buzz for swim. I guess I should use more screens and more herbs in order to make sure my spice wont melt trough. It takes me quite a for me to breakthrough but maybe only with 1 hit. If not then 2! Also there only hold in for about 8-10 seconds.

Any tips?!

To those of you who voted jokingly with 5x more than you need: You are not smart, and probably extremely wasteful.

As endless said, You dont need a lot of spice to have a wonderful experience. What is with people thinking that this is like mushrooms, or acid, or a fucking RC? This is not. your brain can only hold | ----- - -- - -- ---| So much of this stuff before its too late and your too gone to get more. Once you got the final smoke in, your done. You can hit it through the trip, but its just going to make little effects last, your not going to go farther into hyperspace.. There is a cut off limit! Spice will not let you hit psychosis doses. You Just Cant.

So go ahead, do 5-6-7 times more than normal, hit that 400mg of spice in your vape, roll up a joint filled with just DMT, your only going to be WASTING THE BEST THING EVER.

as for the rest of the smart people:

Most doses are usually safe, bear in mind that a dose can be anywhere from 10mg to upwards of 6-70mg. Nothing over that, because its kinda worthless ^read above. I know Ragabr doses very small and gets breakthroughs, I dose in the 30-40mg range and go FAR OUT. Some people can do 60mg, but then it turns into a blackout session, and you barely remember wtf you saw.. why would you want that?

Note: If your not getting your desired results, you probably are seriously doing something wrong. When I first started smoking the spicey, I was doing 2-3x my normal doses and getting nowhere near the results I do now. But now that I know my dosing, and how to regulate flame and heat, EVERYTIME Is a joy.

I can't imagine that 400mg would be safe without at least a sitter around. I once accidentally took 4 to 5 times a normal dose (orally)and it was definately not something i would ever do again. If i would have taken even a tiny bit more then, than i did, my brain would have disconnected...maybe i would have passed out or maybe i would have turned into some zombie, wondering around..not knowing where i was. But i definately would have lost it.
Coming down was by far the happiest moment of my life, knowing that i'd survived it, but the ride was rough and scary. I was afraid i was gonna choke, that i didn't know how to breathe anymore, that i accidentaly would swallow my tongue...those kind of things.

I would be surprised if these people who took 400mg even remembered anything of it.
I think taking that much is very dangerous. At least without a sitter, But even with a sitter, there is still the risk of psychological damage of some kind, i think.

For me, its like cooking. You need to use the right amount of an ingredient - and cook it properly - to get the right flavour. So for me, hearing people going on about huge doses, is like someone saying, "man, I put five whole garlic bulbs in my pasta sauce!" I don't get it. It's stupid. And it's going to taste like shit ...

The Nexian named Endlessness has it right when (s)he says its down to poor vaporisation technique that requires people to take 70mg or more to really get nailed to the cross.

Endlessness-do you recall our recent dicussion regarding my personal preferred method?Using that approach the thought of taking more than 55mg has my bowels a-churning.40-45mg in one lungful takes me as far as I would ever wish to go......

It's becoming clear that there is a difference here between vaporised DMT and orally taken DMT.

Besides the fact that there clearly is a maximum amount of DMT you can normally get into your bloodstream through inhalation, it seems to be that because vaporised DMT is in many ways more intense than orally taken DMT, the dose you can take without passing-out is lower.

With orally taken DMT you can ingest larger amounts ofcourse, but it seems as if the brain is also better equipped to handle large amounts.

Still...thusfar there clearly is a consensus that 5 times a breakthrough dose is definately an upper limit: for most people the limit lies beneath that, but above that limit there's almost a 100% certainty that your experience will be most unpleasant like a sort of mental torture, and that you even might become a danger to yourself.

I agree with what many have said already – it doesn’t take much to go far.

The Strassman study concluded that 0.4mg/kg was a strong dose (he said that in hindsight he would have used a lower dose). So depending on weight, a dose of 25-40mg is all one needs. If you’re using more than about 0.4mg/kg (vaporized), you’re definitely doing something wrong.

I seem to have a very narrow dose range: 25mg is a minimum breakthrough dose, 28mg is a very intense dose. With the GVG, I’ve never used more than 28mg. Prior to the GVG, I’ve never gone above 35mg – at 35mg it was almost total amnesia.

The poll asks what is the maximum safe dose. I can’t answer that, but I know what the maximum comfortable dose is. And I know what my optimum dose is (27mg).

Another point regarding vaporizing – it’s not just how much you take, but how quickly you take it. A dose taken in a leisurely manner over the course of 3-4 hits is not going to have the same intensity as the same dose taken in a rapid single hit.

everyones body and mind is different. myself for example as anyone who knows me granted most will deffinitely not agree with me is usually a massive dose. i did in fact find my own limit last week after a cwe on 5 giant handfulls of mimosa that lead to a 2 hour long breakthrough which i shall NEVER repeat but physically it was fine and my body didnt give any abnormal warning signs altho the psychological aspect was beyond overwhelming and thankfully my mind is constructed to take a nuke but i really should say in all honesty when going with such an overload dose ask yourself why the hell would you wanna risk it and not to mention risk the pains of your family and friends and anyone else who cares for you. take care of yourself and know your limits without having to test them, i assure you we are all infinitely strong but the scars that can be left may at times be unsightly to ourselves and those viewing us figuritively and literally. thats my warning and my testement i hope i made things clear

i should also add the importance of a sitter that can recognize say a seizure stroke heart attack respitory collapse knows cpr and is willing to call 911 if need be. and this person should know this way before hand. the other night if i didnt have a sitter i most certainly would have been in an emergency room flibbering as a mass of terrified jelly on the gurny. and yeah people do drop and pass out or somthing of that nature it seems but i guess i have a strong mental constitution for SMBD of the mind lol. be safe travelers and rememebr at least vaped spice is over fast enough, oral on the other hand......and let me add that when i usually get my ass kicked by psychs its not the dmt its the harmala's that rape me

I would vote for 1x what it takes for the perfect breakthrough... anything else is really just an idiotic waste of spice. I was smoking too much in the beginning, and it's not like I went any further, I just blacked out. Breaking through is breaking through... overshooting is just as much as undershooting... IMHO.

true

Doesn't mentioning the so called "heroic" doses get one banned here? I remember a user was warned and his post edited by a mod in some topic. If not then I have some useful info for this topic.

The dose I did last time was huge (I lied about 50mg, because I saw before how it's considered "uncool" among nexians to do such a stupid thing), but I always thought something was wrong with that trip, the dose I took should have send me BEYOND hyperspace, but it didn't.

Now that there's this topic I'll tell the real story, I just hope to not see the "you're banned" message next time I open nexus:

For anyone interested, I'm talking about this trip
You can also read about what happened after that trip to my mental health in this other topic


And this is how it was done:
The smoking method and device used was funnel and hot spoon.

I had 150mg freebase spice at hand, and it was going to be my third trip with DMT.
First I smoked freebase Harmalas (from rue), I didn't measure how much, just kept smoking until fully intoxicated by them, buzzing ears, ataxia n stuff..
Then decided to smoke 70mg of that spice, 70mg to go straight into hyperspace this time, took the red hot spoon off fire and placed it on the ground, wait until it turned blue (the right moment), and then suddenly in the last moment a crazy thought blazed my mind and I did the big mistake I wished I never did.... dropping all the 150mg onto the spoon and inhaled the think fat fumes slowly using the funnel in one big toke, TO GO STRAIGHT INTO HYPERSPACE FOR SURE.

But even then still I didn't go into that famous hyperspace people talk about.



I've been wondering since then why it did not work, maybe one of these caused the failure:

1- Maybe I burnt the spice. but I waited for the spoon to turn blue from red before dropping the spice onto it. the smoke was smooth as well, causing no discomfort when I inhaled in an slow and steady pace. no fume was let to escape as well, I exhaled all the air inside my lungs before dropping the spice to have big room for all that fumes, I didn't let any to escape.

2- After the trip I felt there was a "lost" and "obscure" phase at the beginning of the trip, which I don't remember anything about at all, I just could feel the blank place of its memory in my head, sensing it, like losing the first 2 minutes of a movie. but always thought that is a normal part of a trip. now after reading this topic and hearing about "blackouts" I'm thinking maybe It was indeed a blackout, and that's the reason I didn't go to hyperspace on that dose.

Exactly endless.

I'm alway's utterly amazed when I read about how large of a dose others on here take.

For me 20mgs vaporized in one hit is the real deal. I came close to 30-35 mgs once (accident) and passed out for a few minutes before I came back to the most intense trip I've ever had. My entire body was moving with this energy coarsing through me and I had little control over it.

50-70mgs... just goes to show you that everyone is different and the ONLY way IMHO to get aquainted with DMT is the slow steady route. For me I started with about 2 mgs. Then went to 5. then to 7.5 Then 10. I then jumped from 10 to 20 and was blown away.

Not only that, but after doing DMT I need significantly less mushroom powder than previously...I'd say about half as much. I can get off pretty good on 1.5 - 2 grams of cubensis now. I used to need 3.5-5.

Eranik - Don't sweat the ban. You're in no danger. Yes, we do try to discourage the mythologizing of the "heroic dose" - whether it be an example of the I've got a death wish variety, or the more common I'm a liar in need of attention type - but anyone can accidentally overshoot the mark, and we're here to share our experiences.

I will say though with regard to your story (and I don't think that you're making it up or embellishing in any way) that it's just physically impossible to take that much in one inhalation (or 3... or 4...). This "hot spoon" vaporization method you're talking about is probably only slightly more effective than throwing 150mgs of spice in a campfire, then standing over it and breathing deeply. In other words, it's an enormous waste - and what is actually being absorbed in your system is probably nothing even close to the amount you are throwing away. Regardless, what you got was clearly enough to put a hurt on you.

I can't possibly imagine anyone of any size properly vaporizing anything much over 50-60mgs - and as most everyone here is indicating, that's a very, very high dosage range. The right tool and the right technique can take you deep with relatively little. Conversely, bad tools and bad technique will waste all your spice and leave you wondering what all the fuss is about.

Wait a minute, what is wrong with heroic dosing?

It's not needed. Find out how much you need to break through and use that amount. There is a window that you are trying to hit. To little and you get the body sensation and nothing else. To much and you fly right past hyperspace and crash into unconsciousness.


There's an old saying that goes something like this.

"There are old psychedelics travelers and there are bold psychedelic travelers, but there are no old bold psychedelic travelers."

~~Sorry I forget the source.

I think the term "heroic dose" has been taken right out of context in this thread. Mckenna coined the term and was talking specifically about a full dose..whatever that is for you. In his case it was 5 dry grams of cubes or 75mg of freebase spice..that was his full on visonary dose(as a self proclaimed hardhead). Using the term "heroic dose" to desribe people dosing 400mg of DMT etc seems out of context..thats just dosing in excess.. Can those of us that find a use for the term as a way to desribe a full dose, whatever that is to the individual please have it back?..and maybe give some credit and a break to the guy who first started to use the term..

Fractal - You have my personal blessing to use whatever terms make you happy.

I hereby coin the phrase "Dumbass Dose", as an alternative for the attention deprived.

i feel like when i smoke too much dmt that i just straight DO NOT remember it. and remembering it is the most of the point of doing it right?