[quote:f448d5aad7]If you have never suffered how can you now if someone is suffering.[/quote:f448d5aad7] Even those who havn't suffered greatly understand suffering when they see it. Humans are Empathic naturally, in most cases (for example psychopaths are not). Think of Buddha for example, he didn't suffer in his early life, but when he finally saw it he was shocked by it. You could argue that it was because he had not seen great suffering that he was so influenced by it when he saw it, whereas others may have come to accept the suffering.

We are always in the process of evolving our consciousness. I agree, during the past 200 years, humans haven't been evolving much, and learning from our own history, and if it repeats again, I believe it could easily be the end of humankind of earth. Regardless this would still be perfect. You must learn to see that right and wrong, and imperfection, simply do not exist. They're mental constructions having no tangible place in realtiy. Nothing is right or wrong. It just is. Our definitions of these concepts evolve constantly, obviously there is no absolute. If something was absolutley wrong, wouldn't God prevent it from happening? Like I've been saying here, there is no God outside of ourselves (though outside of our [i:a0b948d404]normal[/i:a0b948d404] perception. There is no plan besides complete freewill. Life as we know it is a process of remembering that WE ARE GOD and deciding evolve and act as we think God would. Remember this rightangle! Just as light cannot be experienced without darkenss, you couldn't experience the beauty without some degree of ugliness; though the degree we've taken the ugliness is certainly far from necessary. A lot fo it has to do with how far removed we've become from a closer balance with the natural world (like living in small tribes), the repression that human beings go through, and a world where violence is touted in movies and popular culture as the solution to all problems. A part of the repression is not allowing people to freely explore their mind and soul (take psychedelics), the use of which in the proper context is very unconditioning and brings a person to peace about the world around them. To end suffering you must FULLY understand why it is happeneing...why would people do this to other people? And you must have limitless compassion towards people who cause suffering to understand them. I hold that nobody does anything they deem 'wrong' given their understanding of life. Hitler didn't think he was wrong. He had a great misunderstanding about life itself. As do most people. Our consciousness has not been evolving in this regard. But it will or we will die. When people understand what is truly possible they will desire to evolve their consciousness and all of this COULD and as far as I could imagine WILL stop. Lest the collective be so stupid as to die for not changing a few erroneous beleifs held about life and God that are the root of all the strife and suffering in the world. ITS THAT SIMPLE. And as I've been saying, when you kill someone, you send them directly into an unfathomably blissful reunion with God which is certainly not something that anyone would object to, I guarantee it. The process is a continual reaffirmation of the utter mangnificence of God in this way. This is where you lack perspective and understanding. You can never kill anyone. You never die. Don't be confused by associting death with the death of the physical body. Our reality and our perceptions are constructed to make us think that this is how life is, but it's just an illusion, and we can SIMPLY transcend this reality to one where there is no 'death' altogetehr. Like the infinite One, we are limitless and eternal, because we are the infinite One. If I knew this world was fucked as is I would have killed myself already. From my earliest memories I was disguested by a world where I saw nothing but senesless resource destruction and killing. It sickened me and as I saw myself as nothing but another being who would be essentially forced to participate in the madness which I would be powerless to stop...I saw absolutely no point in living. If I couldn't be a part of a solution I refused to be part of the problem. But alas I have come to understand that there is no problem, and that everything is perfect absolutely regardless. But if what's happening is not what we desire, it would seem fitting to change our minds and CREATE something different right? Or you could do nothing. It doesn't matter either way. There is only what you desire to experience, and whether what you are doing serves you in this pursuit, or does not. NOTHING MATTERS. Humanity has a choice to make. More love or more fear; for this is the very root of all action taken. It will either send us to heaven or to hell on earth. But again, most people cannot fathom such things as a transcendance of reality and would be highly skeptical that we could, RIGHT NOW, eneter into a realm of bliss and boundlessness. As we become more aware, collectively, that we could do this, it just seems inevitable to me.[/i]

[quote:f2dfcd154b="rightangle"][quote:f2dfcd154b]If you have never suffered how can you now if someone is suffering.[/quote:f2dfcd154b] Even those who havn't suffered greatly understand suffering when they see it. Humans are Empathic naturally, in most cases (for example psychopaths are not). Think of Buddha for example, he didn't suffer in his early life, but when he finally saw it he was shocked by it. You could argue that it was because he had not seen great suffering that he was so influenced by it when he saw it, whereas others may have come to accept the suffering.[/quote:f2dfcd154b] The day you realize the truth about reincarnation will be a day of great lesson.

[quote:6d46487c6b]Lest the collective be so stupid as to die for not changing a few erroneous beleifs held about life and God that are the root of all the strife and suffering in the world. ITS THAT SIMPLE. [/quote:6d46487c6b] Again you contradict yourself. A world of strife and suffering that is perfect ? So why change it. Then you also claim death is a good thing, so why worry about people dying ? What does the reason for it matter ? [quote:6d46487c6b] And as I've been saying, when you kill someone, you send them directly into an unfathomably blissful reunion with God which is certainly not something that anyone would object to, I guarantee it. [/quote:6d46487c6b] As apposed to a perfect world where strife and suffering exists ? That would make this world less perfect than the world beyond creation, but everything is still perfect in this world ? So why is the world after this so much more perfect ? You've felt perfection, I don't doubt it, but perhaps you don't yet have the framework to deal with it. Every living thing has a spark of Divine in it that is perfect, something that comes from beyond creation. That dosn't mean that everything in this world is perfection though. [quote:6d46487c6b]The day you realize the truth about reincarnation will be a day of great lesson.[/quote:6d46487c6b] If the realm beyond the world is perfect, then reincarnation would best be avoided. Buddhist believe that to be born human is to have the chance at avoiding another cycle of reincarnation, by achieving Nirvana. The reason I have come to DMT is to investigate if DMT can provide a short cut to that outcome, for those that will never have the chance of taking the long way.

[quote:1f931767c6="rightangle"][quote:1f931767c6]Lest the collective be so stupid as to die for not changing a few erroneous beleifs held about life and God that are the root of all the strife and suffering in the world. ITS THAT SIMPLE. [/quote:1f931767c6] Again you contradict yourself. A world of strife and suffering that is perfect ? So why change it. Then you also claim death is a good thing, so why worry about people dying ? What does the reason for it matter ?[/quote:1f931767c6] Why change it? The experience is far from blissful or enjoyable. We're all One. When one of us is suffering, we're all suffering. Why wouldn't we want to change this?! It sucks! This has little to do with perfection. Regardless of what happens EVERYTHING IS PERFECT...the perfection is in that we can decide what no longer serves our interests (such as causing ourselves to suffer) and change, EVOLVE. While I could never again be truley sad at someone's passing, it is an unnecessary aspect of life that can be transcended. The sun revolving around the earth is NOT what kills us. [quote:1f931767c6] And as I've been saying, when you kill someone, you send them directly into an unfathomably blissful reunion with God which is certainly not something that anyone would object to, I guarantee it. [/quote:1f931767c6] [quote:1f931767c6]As apposed to a perfect world where strife and suffering exists ? That would make this world less perfect than the world beyond creation, but everything is still perfect in this world ? So why is the world after this so much more perfect ? You've felt perfection, I don't doubt it, but perhaps you don't yet have the framework to deal with it. Every living thing has a spark of Divine in it that is perfect, something that comes from beyond creation. That dosn't mean that everything in this world is perfection though. [/quote:1f931767c6] We choose to be here. We choose to suffer. We're ALWAYS doing what we want given the present circumstances. And we can always change our choice of what we're experiencing. You seem to be stuck, glued even, on your own notion of perfection. Nothing can be imperfect. Try to understand this. There is NOTHING that isn't divine.

[quote:21385f8a19] It sucks! This has little to do with perfection. Regardless of what happens EVERYTHING IS PERFECT...[/quote:21385f8a19] How can everything be perfect when there is suffering that you agree sucks ? [quote:21385f8a19] We choose to be here. We choose to suffer. [/quote:21385f8a19] How do you know that ? The innocent that suffer do not choose it. [quote:21385f8a19]There is NOTHING that isn't divine.[/quote:21385f8a19] Suffering is not divine.

[quote:4d1925a64e]Why change it? The experience is far from blissful or enjoyable. We're all One. When one of us is suffering, we're all suffering. Why wouldn't we want to change this?! It sucks![/quote:4d1925a64e] Then for the third time I will ask you why you beleive that, [quote:4d1925a64e]Through the Greatest Suffering we obtain the Greatest Joy [/quote:4d1925a64e] Again contradiction.

[quote:7b53a01148]the perfection is in that we can decide what no longer serves our interests (such as causing ourselves to suffer) and change, EVOLVE[/quote:7b53a01148] That's it ? That's your idea of perfection. Then perhaps you haven't seen perfection after all. Life has been suffering in many many many ways throughout creation. Everyone smoking DMT isn't going to stop that. It is possible that one day we will have a shift in thinking and there will be less suffering. While life exists, while disease exists, while flesh and bone mixes with rocks, thirst with drought and hunger with famine, there will always be suffering. To think otherwise is a delusion. To stop suffering is to stop life.

This isn't going to get anywhere. Through experiencing suffering we then know how great joy/happiness and love truley are. To experience the good without the bad is IMPOSSIBLE. At SOME point, and were talking ETERNITY here, you must experience something you do not wish to experience, otherwise you would have no contextual reference to choose what you wished to not experience and what you did. This does NOT imply that we must continue to suffer, we know it sucks, we don't have to keep experiencing it to know that. For a more advanced race, I'm sure once would be enough. "Until you can see the God in all, you cannot see God at all..." Until you can see the perfection in everything you have a bigger picture yet to see. Just because something is unfavorable doesn't imply imperfection. Imperfection does not exist. Either everything is perfect or all of it is imperfect and I don't but that at all. See the ONENESS of EVERYTHING. See the way in which suffering and joy are ONE. I agree, smoking DMT isn't going to change anything. Not absolutely. Change is a choice. Choice is influenced by experience. Psychedelics are tools to help initiate change due to the experience they help to facilitate. DMT happens to 'get the point across' very quickly. It is a very powerful tool. Like I said, everything helps us in some way, even if it is a continual and unnecessary demonstration of what we do not wish to experience.

[quote:e7516e9387]This isn't going to get anywhere. Through experiencing suffering we then know how great joy/happiness and love truley are. To experience the good without the bad is IMPOSSIBLE. At SOME point, and were talking ETERNITY here, you must experience something you do not wish to experience, otherwise you would have no contextual reference to choose what you wished to not experience and what you did. This does NOT imply that we must continue to suffer, we know it sucks, we don't have to keep experiencing it to know that. For a more advanced race, I'm sure once would be enough. [/quote:e7516e9387] That's one popular theory. I think outside that 'you must suffer' square. You should atleast try it. You can put your hand under a cold tap and you feel it as pleasantly cold. You don't need to put your hand under the hot tap and burn it to have known what the cold tap felt like, all that putting your hand under the hot tap taught you was that it is hot and not to do it again. Suffering teaches us to avoid suffering. Joy is joy, joy is Divine, try to make it suffer does nothing. Some people go through life without any major suffering yet they still understand joy and happiness and they still understand suffering. (e.g. the previous Buddha example) Divinity does not need to pay the price of suffering to exist. Divinity sees a reflection of Divinity, not a reflection of Evil. I have 20 cats, they have all had a life as close to a cat utopia as you could get. They are all Loving, Beautiful, Joyful creatures. [quote:e7516e9387]Imperfection does not exist.[/quote:e7516e9387] I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that for reasons I have stated several times now.

I believe that reality is a multidimensional ladder so to speak and that unfortunately we in this realm are close to the bottom rung where suffering permeates quite alot, every sentient being is suffering here. The higher the rung the more wonderous and beautiful the living conditions and the less beings suffer. Suffering is not something anyone enjoys but it exists in this way in this environment because the duality of good and evil, ying and yang is very pronounced at this level.

It's nice have some other input into the thread. Do you have any ideas of the cause / need for Evil 'down here' ? The Gnostic view has a complex idea of the existance of Evil in creation, that also makes alot of sense.

I think the positive and negative coexist in the higher realms/dimensions almost as if in play with each other or a cosmic dance but they are not good or evil per se. Only at this level of reality do they begin to display aspects of good and evil, that is to say, that is how the two cosmic energies of ying and yang display themselves at this level or in this dimension. But from an even deeper level these two energies are actually manifested from pure benevolence or what we call love.

Interesting idea of Love ultimately becoming Evil, due to the environment it finds itself in. The question for me is that ultimately there is a singularity at some point it must have split to become dual, a polarity. Why did that happen and why did it descend into matter, seemingly ignorant to the results.

[quote:52df47bf5a="rightangle"]Interesting idea of Love ultimately becoming Evil, due to the environment it finds itself in. The question for me is that ultimately there is a singularity at some point it must have split to become dual, a polarity. Why did that happen and why did it descend into matter, seemingly ignorant to the results.[/quote:52df47bf5a] It does that to create suffering 'cause suffering is what we need to learn certain things! Suffering is like mental gymnastics. Makes our mind stronger.

[quote:342277a39e]It does that to create suffering 'cause suffering is what we need to learn certain things! Twisted Evil Suffering is like mental gymnastics. Makes our mind stronger.[/quote:342277a39e] As I have said and tried to show through example, I don't beleive that is the case. That is a way of thinking that tries to justify suffering. We want to justify suffering because if we don't it is then a problem for our enjoyment of creation. Those who have been abused and suffered significantly are often not well balanced or happy people. In some cases they cause others suffering, in some cases they become numb to suffering and all sorts of other mental issues arrise from abuse, both in humans and other animals. I've offered plenty of examples, there are so many more.

[quote:a926d64956="rightangle"]Interesting idea of Love ultimately becoming Evil, due to the environment it finds itself in. The question for me is that ultimately there is a singularity at some point it must have split to become dual, a polarity. Why did that happen and why did it descend into matter, seemingly ignorant to the results.[/quote:a926d64956] Duality is a result of our way of interpreting the universe. Our level of development shows the true nature of the universe as a logical paradox. Black is White, Love is Hate, Up is Down .... you get the idea look up David Bohm's work .... and Mandalic Logic. Fun stuff to think about [quote:a926d64956="rightangle"]Divinity sees a reflection of Divinity, not a reflection of Evil. [/quote:a926d64956] Divinity sees no reflection because Divinity is both the reflection and the reflected and there is no distinction between good and evil. A man need not be Cesar in order to understand Cesar because they are both Men they understand as men. Buddha could relate to suffering because it is intrinsic in human nature. Why do you think the Divine would be reduceable to human concepts and words? Perhaps all things are necessary

[quote:f8a8e877bc] Black is White, Love is Hate, Up is Down .... you get the idea [/quote:f8a8e877bc] I get the idea that you understand what an oxymoron is, however Love is not Hate and never can be. Perhaps your trying to reduce the experience of Love in creation to some oscillating waveform in another dimension, where it can no longer be described as the experience we call Love. [quote:f8a8e877bc] Duality is a result of our way of interpreting the universe. [/quote:f8a8e877bc] Yes and the Holocaust is just one example of the interpretation of duality in matter. Reducing that event to some removed duality in another dimension where the divinity is ignorant to the horror and suffering of the duality in matter demostrates the problems of the material world. [quote:f8a8e877bc]Buddha could relate to suffering because it is intrinsic in human nature.[/quote:f8a8e877bc] It is intrinsic to life, all creatures suffer. Yes, I am sure he could also suffer, so what ? What he learnt was that suffering was something to avoid and escape from. He mediated for years and then decided that the end to suffering is the end to incarnation into life and then offered a path to acheive that. [quote:f8a8e877bc] Perhaps all things are necessary[/quote:f8a8e877bc] Perhaps not.

[quote:1e422aac09="rightangle"]I get the idea that you understand what an oxymoron is, however Love is not Hate and never can be. Perhaps your trying to reduce the experience of Love in creation to some oscillating waveform in another dimension, where it can no longer be described as the experience we call Love.[/quote:1e422aac09] All things are made of what they are and what they are not. Without light how could we know dark. Your looking at the shadows and saying "this is all there is" without wondering what makes those shadows. [quote:1e422aac09="rightangle"] [quote:1e422aac09] Perhaps all things are necessary[/quote:1e422aac09] Perhaps they are not.[/quote:1e422aac09] Exactly.

[quote:483d9ba70a]Without light how could we know dark.[/quote:483d9ba70a] Without light we would only know the dark. Who said we need to know darkness anyway. You are stuck in the thinking of duality. [quote:483d9ba70a]Your looking at the shadows and saying "this is all there is" without wondering what makes those shadows. [/quote:483d9ba70a] Well I'm certainly not saying this is all there is, others appears to be doing that by claiming that there is only perfection, I am actually trying to show exactly that this is _not_ all there is.