Then buy a gun and dont pay tax ; )



Reminds me vey much of a discussion in another thread (in sustainable nexus?)...
Yes, to a degree i try to be a conscious consumer. Like vegetarians try to be conscious consumers, to a degree... a little more perhaps.
Guess we are all hypocrites... When i admit to be one, am i still a hypocrite?

The arms industry is devastating indeed...
Just like the drug industry, wood industry, oil industry, fish industry... etc. etc.

Overpopulation is devastating if you ask me.
It is just too much.

I don't trust the US government without the citizens having the right to bear arms. The right to bear arms is the ultimate check and balance.

Guns are a tricky issue. Clearly what they are doing in TN seems absurd to me...allowing people to carry guns into bars is retarded in my opinion. But having grown up with them I'm not intimidated by them. People know right form wrong and still have to face huge prison sentences for taking another person's life.

I wish we lived in a world were no one needed guns, but we are not there yet as a world. Maybe another 2000-5000 years of evolution will get us there...

? The money is still going to the gun industry even if you dont pay tax, so I dont understand your point.



I feel that seeing we all have contradictions is a first step, but its not enough.. We have to struggle against this. Cant have a defeatist attitude, right?

So for example:



Dont blame others, try to do your part. Avoid buying drugs from dealers, buy sustainably harvested certified wood, use public transport, buy fresh local season sustainably harvested fish only, etc etc


now back to what others said:

I find pretty peculiar how so many of the americans here are talking about the 'right to own gun' as if this protects you from your government, while IMO this is purely an illusion. Its not like the police would invade everybody's houses if they didnt have a gun, there isnt even enough police for that. The government and big corporations are already in control, brainwashing, making everybody consume. A puppet with a gun is still a puppet (not saying you guys are puppet, but just going against the argument that somehow it protects you). The way I see it this is just rationalization for you to own a gun.

Just look at all the countries out there that people dont own guns, and this doesnt make the government dominate them any more than anywhere else, thats not good logic imo. Same for places where there are rebels with guns and this doesnt make the government go less against them.

What owning guns does is making everybody accustomed to them, and make the world an unsafer place (and giving money to a nasty fking industry that ruins this planet). How comes so many people die from firearms in USA and not in other places where the average population doesnt own guns? If guns is indeed a neutral instrument, then what is the explanation for this?

Either a) guns are not neutral instruments but they have a psychological impact that can lead people into using them violently (and tend to create accidental deaths more easily too), or b) americans are naturally more violent than people in other countries and if you took the guns out from america, there would still be the same amount of deaths but done with knives or whatever

I would think a) is more plausible....

Yes, i completely agree.

America is doomed anyway, whether they think they're the 'greatest nation' or not.

Living in the past.............while the rest of the world moves on.

Trouble is that we're all in the same boat, so the world as a whole cant really move on, if people/government/institutions in a big country are wasting resources, polluting the planet and promoting a violent industry that is obviously destroying many lives not only inside one particular arbitrary political division (i.e. their country), but elsewhere in the world.. We're all paying for the karma of others....

Unfortunately you are very right.

And america isn't unique in this.
We've all been ignoring all the warnings about our unsustainable way of living our lives.

The climate, the ecosystem, the unfairness of global trade, depletion of our resources, unsustainable foreign policies in the midle east, etc.

And now it's all starting to come down at us.

So be it.
But giving up guns is not going to change that.

I like to keep my options open. There are better ways to change karma.
Also i think it would be a naive to let more arms be in control of few organisations.

My opinion is that all the Guns of the world should be gathered and molten into musical instruments. And their production should be permanently discontinued.
The same fate should come to all mines, bombs, misiles, bullets and their producers.

Maybe we cannot stop people from slaughtering eachother, but we could at least stop making it so damn easy for them.

I think his point was that all taxes go to the arms industry, so the best route to stop giving the gun industry money would be to buy a gun for protection and then stop paying taxes.

And as mentioned before, if you buy a used gun, that's not really contributing to the arms industry, is it?

I'm a gun owner and while I'm not strictly a vegetarian, I definitely lean that way (almost all of my meat consumption is fish). I'm also a very conscious consumer. I consider my guns to be mostly for recreational purposes, but also as tools which I would need in the event of some survival scenario. I see little difference between owning a gun and owning most other items...

The only thing that I ask, even though I consider violence to be a part of life, is how does one differentiate between necessary and unnecessary violence? I'm not sure where I'd draw that line.

I think this is something everyone must decide for themselves, based on which direction they want humanity to progress in. IMO, most of these reasons for owning guns are flimsy justifications.

I won't make the claim that I am right and owning a gun is wrong, but I sure know what is right and wrong in my own life.
It's not an issue of logic....reason is easily influenced in such a justification based system.

And yes, of course buying a used gun still contributes to the market. The person you bought the used gun from is selling because he owns guns, and will continue buying guns with the money given to him. Buying the product perpetuates the market, whether directly or indirectly.

Guns are designed for one thing: Killing.
I simply don't like killing. If I can avoid violence, I will.

I just think that having a Gun on you, automatically gives you the urge to use it.
If you land in a threatening situation, Armed Robery for instance, and you have no Gun on you, you might act timid, hand over your wallet and get away unharmed.

Now if you ran into this Situation while having a Gun on you, you might be tempted to use it. This could end up with you shooting your robber, your robber shooting you or you 2 shooting eachother. The knowledge of having a Gun on you can trigger the urge to use it, even if taking a step back and handing over your wallet could have easily averted violence.

Being robbed of a wallet full of money, bankpasses, driverslicence..etc That seriously sucks monkeyballs, but it can never be as devastating and horrifying as possibly getting into a Gunfight possibly getting killed, killing a man or (a bit of) both.

If I ever find myself in a situation where I really would need a Gun, to just survive, I know; It's time for the longest journey I've ever made.
If the society around me becomes out of control violent (Extreme criminality, Police state terror, Warfare) then a Gun really isn't much of a Life Saver at all.
If the society around you is in that condition; Move Move Move, Walk, Cycle, Hitchhike, Drive, Swim untill you see nothing but forrest, mountains and lakes.
If you find yourself exposed to Warfare, police State terror or Violent Criminality, a Gun isn't gunna protect you. You'll be severely outgunned and outnumbered. Your best bet is to Run like a maniac from such epic scale violence and settle in a remote, safe natural enviroment.

Even if you live in a remote natural location where Warfare or police State terror is highly unlikely to find or bother you, malicious human beings may attempt to do harm to you when they discover your house.( Breaking in, Stealing, Killing, Rape) Off course this is a worse case scenario, but even in such cases there are Non-Lethal alternative Weapons which can be used to defend oneself from human threats.
A Shelter-basement, Blowguns and Darts with incapacitating but harmless Psychedelic/Narcotic substances, a guard dog,
Geese around the house(perfect burglar alarm)

The feeling you need a Gun to be Safe is a clear indicator that where ever you live must not be a very safe, peacefull and civilised enviroment.

Maybe interesting to some of you...

Sun Tzu's Art of War:

---
Chapter 1:

1 The art of war is of vital importance
to the State.

2 It is a matter of life and death, a road either
to safety or to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry
which can on no account be neglected.

---

To all of you who have something personal against guns: Your ideals are beautiful, no doubt about that, but your plans are not realistic...
And i really hope you will never find out about that.

Peace

TY

I'm not so sure "The State" is so vital to maintain, personally.

Who can say what is realistic or not? I know for sure an ideal situation will never be reached with opponents saying it will never work.
It will never work because you aren't attempting to make it work!

There will always be people starving, dying of disease, being killed in meaningless acts of violence.
The knowledge that these acts can never be eradicated does by no means dictate we should not attempt to minimize their occurrence.
We feed the hungry, develop medicines...

Violence will always exist, no doubt, but as SKA mentioned:
"Maybe we cannot stop people from slaughtering each other, but we could at least stop making it so damn easy for them."

Well, I agree. Really, the reason I own guns is because I like guns. That's pretty much it.

As for the issue of self defense... if I ever carried a handgun (which I won't) for self defense, it wouldn't be in case of situations where the mugger also has a gun. As you mentioned, those will always end badly if you choose to use your gun. However, the gun could save you from a mugging in the event that the mugger DOESN'T have a gun.

Personally, the only weapon that would hang around my room for self-defense purposes would be a high-powered pellet pistol. It's not meant to see me through a firefight... just to seriously deter someone who DOESN'T have a gun. I would never challenge someone with a gun, as mentioned that's bad; but it would make someone with a shank think twice.

And I also think that most gun-defendants (myself included) would agree that warfare would be way better if we were still doing it with swords/spears!

Well said.

Again you aspire to very high ideals. Perhaps humans will one day make it work, but it won't be in your lifetime. Look around. Read the news. Pick up a history book or ten. We, right now, are living in one of the most peaceful times the world has ever known....and it's pretty violent out there. Human nature changes very slow....unfortunately.

I agree killing sucks. I have hunted and killed dear, dove, and rabbit. I'm vegetarian now. I still side with the right to bear arms. I agree the USA is doomed. When this country implodes I don't want to be here if the only people with guns are criminals and gang bangers. Guns can be used to kill, but they can also be used to defend. Freedom is something that the world won very very slowly...it took thousands of years to get here. I would like to know that "we the people of the world" can defend the ideals that our forefathers have fought and struggled for for generations.

I'd love to live in a world without violence and I do my part to make it so. That's all anyone can do is their part. Make guns illegal and criminals, governments, and gangs will be the only one's with them. Hell No.

I never said anything about enforcing disarmament. My wish is for humanity to evolve to the point of not feeling the need to grasp at physical security by means of violence, whether defensive or not.
Yes, I realize this is a very high ideal, but that is kind of the point. Why aspire to low ideals?

No, substantial world change will most certainly not occur in our lifetimes, but again, that in no way means we shouldn't start moving in a positive direction. Slow change is a reality, I think everyone realizes that. But if your reason for not attempting change is that it will take a long time....how the hell will anything ever change?


Well, I respect your stance then. My opinion differs from yours, but of course that does not make me right. Honesty is refreshing.
Really, my biggest issue with gun ownership is all the reasoning. No one is fooled.

would buddha own a gun?

Would buddha smoke DMT?