Living here in the USA, I can say to you all that our government does not represent our population much at all anymore!! Our country was originally designed to be a government of the people!! Sadly, this is not the case anymore!! We are now governed over by the elite!!
Originally, Senators & Legislators were farmers & businessmen most of the time & they would go to Washington once a month to do government business. Now, Most people in the government were born into it, their parents & grandparents were in the government!! Most have never worked a real job!! Yet Senators & Legislators make six figure salary's as "representatives" of the people.

That does not represent me or anyone close to me, in any way!!

Please do not judge the people of the US by our shit head government!!
I can pretty much garentee it won't(can't) be this way too much longer!!

WS

People in power (the ones with the money) don't want you to use psychedelics to wake up your soul and start to question your reality. They just want you to drink booze and keep on sleeping. They just want you to keep on consuming to fill up that gap in your soul. They don't want you to know that there's something more to life than just work, sleep and consume!

Corperate USA has been infecting the entire world, Most of Europe and the US are buddies due to finacial and economic dependency.

Look at China,which was "allowed" into the WTO (world trade organization) in 2001.They want what we have in the United States and they are getting it.China own's a lot if not most of the United states (our debt). 1.4 billion people in china.400 million a yr. are moving from rural area's,where thery were riding bicycles and moving into cities,joining the middle class.Western idealism,which has gotton twisted over the last hundred yrs has infected the world!

They are smarter then us too.They have a huge trade surplus and budget surplus,whereas the U.S. our "twin" defecits are atronomicle and the middle class americans are paying for it.

Do most americans follow blindly the leadership of our country,for the most part yes but as people are getting laid off from their jobs,getting foreclosed on their homes and their children are on drugs (generalization),people are starting to wake up to the fact that our country is run by a bunch of crooks and it's not GWB (he's a puppett on a string),it's the large corperations that have put the small bussiness men out of biz.

Please dont associate me w/ my govt and corperate america.

It's funny but this thread was started in concerns to an unfortunate individual that is getting in trouble for possession of salvia and look where the topic has twisted to.I guess what is happenning to him is just a microcosm of a much larger picture.I was just observing where the conversation went.

I know W isn't the great mastermind. That would be just too bizar. But he's the representant of an ideology. But let's not as westerners be too pessimistic about our own civilization. I would say that love and compassion are major values for probably a vast majority of americans and europeans and the people who live in the periphery of the western world. The ideology held by W and his companions simply comes down to widening the gap between rich and poor, those with power and those who don't got power, going back to slavery, but not enforced by law or direct violence, but by the economics of poverty.
Where the market in itself is not evil, when it is being worshipped as a god it is this new religion that as a pseudo-science becomes evil. When you say you want the rich to get richer and the poor to get poorer, you want to force people in to slavery by economic means, and you want to exploid the earth and exploid people, squeeze them out like a lemon till you got every precious drop of juice, you are not making yourself popular. On the other hand when you say that governments should do as least as possible in interfering (by taxes as well as by laws)with 'the market', just sit back and do nothing when people are being exploited, you reach exactly the same thing, but now you can do like it wasn't your intent that this would happen.
This is the believe in the 'invisible hand'. The invisible hand is going to make everything alright, whatever problem it is that you want solved, the invisible hand will fix it for you, and here comes the best part...when the invisible hand doesn't bring what you've hoped for, then it's just as fine, because then it was just not ment to be. Then the invisible hand has decided in all it's wisdom that what you wanted was not supposed to happen, so you see....this great fantastic marvelous invisible hand always get's it right.
When an american or european wants to treat his workers like they are treated in some factories in China, Indonesia, Vietnam or India, he
would be sent to jail immediately, but by opening all borders and making this planet one big free trade zone with as little rules as possible, you can outsource any job to countries where slavery still exists and the great thing is, that this creates a powerfull incentive for governments all over the world including the places where human rights are taken seriously to give way to this invisible hand as much way as possible. Because if you don't, you're gonna lose job's and wich politician want's that to happen?
And all of this is made possible, and there we end up again at where this topic started, by taking something good, freedom, and interpreting the word in the weirdest and narrowest way possible.

I think most americans don't condone this, they just think "our government wouldn't do those kind of things". Ít's just naïve. And evilminded sick bastards like W take advantage of this naïvity, not to mention this fucked-up, psychopathic criminal carl rove.

Hi Poly!
I am an American involved in the Presidential Election. I live in the DC suburbs and the majority of Americans are not that naive.
The MAJORITY of Americans were victimized not only once but twice in the last 8 years, by the Republican PArty inlcuding Bush, Rove and all there ilk.
In 2000 GW did not win an election by vote. Our Supreme Court decided that election.
NOT GONNA HAPPEN AGAIN!
The free ride is over, and en masse the Americans are poised to take back the center and renew our roots. Obama a(and the Clintons) represent the best of our philosophy and ideals - including absolute protection of individual freedoms of thought and action. And we know that Peace is an attainable strategic security goal. (What is 100 years of War the answer to again, McCain?)

Economic strength is dependent on a system which allows the maximum number of people to reach their maximum potential. To do that, intellectual freedom must be preserved. Including the freedom to explore inner space.

The Democrats in America are the majority, and we support the decriminalization of personal use of marijuana and other psychotropic substances.
After all, in many ways the "American Dream" is the dream of all people everywhere who champion the rights of the individual to explore and grow so long as it does not impinge on the rights of your neighbor.

Please welcome us back, Europe - Africa, Australia, Asia, South America, Antarctica etc.?

The best choice would have been Dennis Kucinich. Even though I'm against gouvernment of any kind.

I think obama is a joke. He's got charms, that's for sure.
McCain is a nightmare, so is Hillary Clinton.

With pleasure.
If indeed americans are in majority not that naïve, then i feel even more sorry for them becausse of what has happened the past few years or decades.
In europe we have the same kind of strugles taking place and, well... i think over here, at least where i live, people áre naïve. We have our own carl rove's too. In my country, the netherlands, people who stand in the way of the wrong kind of politicians and businesmen are as much risking their lives as elsewhere, but the main reason this is possible, is that the majority of the dutch people think that our government wouldn't do or allow these kind of things.
It's tough.
I fear that in america, the elections are not going to be an easy thing. Prepare for the usual slander, lies and mudthrowing.
It would be a disgrace if the republicans would win after all they've messed up. On the other hand..4 more years of republicans would probably ensure that after that, no republican would ever get elected again for the next 100 years.

For the last 60 years (at least), most of the American population has been quite naïve and has thought "our government wouldn't do those kind of things"!!
But those ideas are coming to a close, & fast!!

Most of our population is now starting to wake up a bit and seeing that we, in fact, have been being manipulated by the officials we supposedly elected ourselves!! Personally it makes me sad, I just hope enough people get tired of it soon enough!! So that the US doesn't end up being views like the Nazis throughout history!!

And it is true, Bush did not win the popular vote in his first election!!!
The Electoral Collage voted him in!!
They are supposed to be representatives of their individual states voting choice, but in the end, they can vote anyway they want.
So the population's actual votes can be (and have been) completely sidestepped, if it doesn't turn out the way it's supposed to!!
Now my biggest problem with this whole setup is the fact that I have no fucking idea who these people in the "Electoral Collage" are!! I don't know one name!!
Ever since bush won his first election, through the Electoral Collage, whenever this topic comes up in conversation I've been asking every person I can, if they could tell me the name of just one person in the Electoral Collage, from any state. Also how does one get into the Electoral Collage??? They sure as hell don't do much publicizing of that vote!!

I have yet to ever get an answer from anybody except, "I don't know"!!!

And before any of you chaps hop on Google and look it up.
Of course, anyone could (& should!!) do that!! I'm saying this should be general knowledge, it should be easily available knowledge!! But you have to do some looking and most common members of the US population have no idea who they are, some don't even know that this is how our presidential election actually works!!!
These are the people who get to decide who is going to be the face of our country, the one "in charge"!!!
These are the few people who's vote actually counts when it comes down to it!!
I've asked a room of sophomore, political science majors and still couldn't get an answer!!!
That is fucking wrong and that is our modern government in a nutshell!!!

O.K. enough of me ranting!!

WS

WS - Your outrage is well aimed, but truly, The Supreme Court's decision regarding the legality of the Florida vote count was what resulted in the first Bush win. (The Supreme Court decision affected the count from the Electoral College which is decided by the voting numbers/precinct. The Electoral College is a relic of the pre-industrial era from my recollections.
The individuals are not that powerful really.
Unlike Primary delegates, they are bound to vote the way their precinct goes in the popular vote.
But what would be so wrong with our present state of technology with abolishing the Electoral College? There are no geographical barriers to using the popular vote anymore, now it's just a power play and tradition. Stupid and hard to explain, even for those who hold PhD's in PoliSci. Archaic.
Anyay, ALL U. S. Presidents have been elected by the Electoral College since there's been one, not just Bush - and that's been for a very long time. (Have to look up the number of years/Presidents, but certainly the Electoral College is an obsolte idea from long ago when not everyone could physically get to a polling place)

Here's (from Wikipedia) a really good brief explanation of the Electoral College:

"U.S. Presidential campaigns concentrate on winning the popular vote in a combination of states that choose a majority of the electors, rather than campaigning to win the most votes nationally.

Each state has a number of electors equal to the number of its Senators and Representatives in the United States Congress. "
So it would be difficult, but certainly not impossible for the Electoral vote not to reflect the popular vote. In a close battle, as was in 2000 it is much more likely to happen of course. I am very concerned that the polls show a very close battle again this year. But, as Jesus said "Give unto Caesar..." as it's all about power and people who seek it are naturally always suspect.