heya nexians! ok so i've only smoked spice like 4 times, and the closest i've gotten is one sub-breakthrough level (fuckin insane btw). So my dmt experience is very limited. I love shrooms tho and can easily handle it. So i would like to know if i should begin work with aya yet.
I plan on having a moderate level trip (intensity~5/10), and intend on tripping for 4 hours. On Nexus chat, i was told to begin with 25g Caapi bark: 10g Chacruna. Does this sound right to you guys?
Also, i think some people said that even 50g caapi bark is a really strong trip. But this sounds confusing to me, cuz i just heard McKenna's talk in which he said he takes 500g Caapi Bark with 85g Chacruna for a SINGLE DOSE!!

Also my other questions are:
will i be able to function, i.e. walk, talk, navigate through a forest, etc...?
I don't plan on having a sitter at all. I will be tripping with my friend, who will also be doing aya for the first time, and will be just as psychedelized as me. So do i need a sitter? (this isn't really an option)

Thanks a lot for your help fellas. if you can answer any aspect of my questions, it will help me enormously!!! So please help out if ya can. Thanks for taking the time to read this

I can't remember where I got this but here is his method.
he says it is 12 to 15, 100ml doses


Terence's hoasca recipe:
(taken from an audiotape)
Using cv. Cielo [Plowman 6041], Clone raised by Terence.

500 grams of fresh Banisteriopsis vine
85 fresh Psychotria viridis leaves

Boil the total volume in large nonaluminum pot (intereferes w/ effective).
Layer the crushed (vigoruously smashed) hoasca with the leaves.
Boil at rolling boil for 4 hours.
Pour off deep yellow liquid.
Replace with more water.
Boil 4 hours more.
Discard solid material.
Combine the 10-15 gallons and reduce to the number of doses (12-15 dose).
100 ml per dose.
Don't boil too fast or will carmelize and get thick which makes it hard to swallow.
Should remain thin.

Caapi dosage depends on variety. 50 grams should be OK for cielo.
as for chacruna, less than 50 grams may be tricky to get anything as the DMT content in chacruna is very uncertain.

For 4 hour trips I would recommend to do a boost after the 2nd hour. thus if you boil 100 g of caapi and 100 g of chacruna You can end up with 2 doses, which will last you 4-6 hours. Take note that after the boost the experience will be much more intense!

yes this is where i heard him say this Brian. But he says, he uses 500g Caapi Bark, and 85g Chacruna for a SINGLE dose, NOT 12-15 doses. Listen to him say this HERE at 1:58.
What i figured was that he just makes 12-15 doses altogether, which means ~6000grams of bark, and 1020g chacruna.



I already ordered 100g Red bark, and i was thinking of making 4 doses with it (25g each), with 12-20g of Chacruna (Brazilian strain) added per dose. I've read many accounts where people get deep in the aya state on just 20g bark, so don't you think 50g could be a high dose to start off with?

Thanks a lot for your replies Brian, and pictaris; its very much appreciated. thanks for helping out

Every time that SWIM has gone with less that 40g for an aya journey, she has regretted not going for more. Regarding harmala sensitivity, she's pretty light-weight with Rue and sublingual dosage.

I have never done this before as you can probably tell from my questions.

I have just received 100g B.caapi and 50g S.viridis
I was thinking of boiling this up the traditional way using distilled water.

Is this a standard dose ?

Should I split this dose into two parts and take one half to see what happens and If needed take the other half
or should I just down the lot at one time ?

I will welcome any advice. Thanks

Everyone's approaches here sound pretty safe and balanced. If you don't take enough, you can always take more, but if you take too much, well...

Potency of vine varies GREATLY, so you can't judge by numbers, only effects. When sitting up makes you dizzy, when there are creatures in your room, when you hear vibrations, when you have visions... these are all signs of sufficient Caapi intoxication. If you drink a conservative amount and you feel NOTHING, drink more. It takes a few tries to find your sweet spot, but once you find it, you'll know EXACTLY how to dose and the rewards are boundless.

Much love.

I also posted some cooking techniques in the all about Aya sticky, if it helps!

i would say that starting out by drinking 100gbark and 50g viridis could be intense, especially if its your first time. My Aya knowledge is quite limited, but to be cautionary, I'm starting out with 25gRed bark: 12gBrazilain chacruna. I would suggest you should split your doses in two. take your first half of the dose, and then if you aren't at the level you'd like to be after 2 hours, re-dose with the other half. Maybe someone else may be able to better answer your question, as i'm wondering about a few similar things...




Thank you minxx for your input. Since you have a lot of aya experience, could you tell me if the dosage i'm starting out with (25g Red bark:12g Brazilian Chacruna) is a good dose to start out with? I read your stickied Aya thread, and i absolutely loved it!! It has so much important information in it, and I appreciate your time and effort to compile all the knowledge in that thread...It is AWESOME!!
In your thread, it says to use a ratio of 1:1; but i was told in chat to use a ratio of 2:1 for my first time. I would like to hear your opinion on this. Should i do 1:1? or are there any other dosage adjustments you would recommend? Cuz i wanna be sure this dosage works...because i remember reading one of your posts from ayahuasca forums in which u said that sometimes people don't trip on Aya for the firt 2 or 3 tries (and this happened to you if i remember correctly..)
Thanks a lot minxxxxxxxxxxxxx!!!!!!!!!!!

2:1 vine:leaf could be wise. My personal favorite is 5:4 vine:leaf with Brazilian chacruna. The problem with chacruna is that the potency varies widely. You can never overdo the vine, but you can easily overdo the admixture! Also, like I said, Caapi's strength varies widely. Starting at your dose sounds great, you may need to take a booster. It is POSSIBLE that the vine may only be active in the 100g+ range, BUT, see what you feel at smaller amounts, and observe every change in your body as you increase incrementally. Your body will tell you, focus within. If you poured yourself a tall glass of Caapi-only and drank slowly over the course of an hour, without caring about measurement or finishing the cup, you will know All There Is To Know about dosing. The plants will tell you. Your body will tell you.

Get to know 25g. When you know that, deepen the experience by another 10g, or to another 25g. Compare the two states. This comparison will provide even more information about how much you need.

I have done a fair amount of work with two very close friends who literally require 200g+ to crack them open, every time. While my experience is the direct opposite (I can get several hours of effects from 5g now), there are plenty of people who require a lot, and the ones I have brewed for seem to outnumber those who do not. But it's impossible to say how you will react until you try the first sip. I feel compelled to place a caution at both ends of the spectrum: I don't want to give people kamakazi recommendations that result in a rough ride, but I don't want to see people losing faith after hours of hard work, drinking the tea (a challenge in itself!), lots of soulful preparation, and feeling like, "no matter what I do, nothing happens." There are *SO* many variables, so the best trick I know is to follow the signs.

There is nothing to be lost from a low dose; you build a relationship, learn about your body, get to know the plants. Physically, it is still intensely therapeutic, Caapi still scavenges free radicals from the brain, you WILL BE HEALED even if you don't get fireworks. I know there's so much excitement and anticipation, especially after hours of hammering, hours of brewing, hours of preparing sacred space. I prefer to cook up one or two kilos of vine at a time so I can literally just drink as I need to drink, and drink as much as I require, so it's not like--oh no--less than half of what was needed was brewed--all that work--ahh!!

Regardless, please always do the work from a space of humble service and know that Mama will speak when you are ready. Faith faith.

I experienced "effects" the first two times I drank, low doses with admixture from an unverifiable source. I broke through on my third journey--first journey with positively sourced materials--and it was wild. It was also with 20g Caapi, 1g of Mimosa.

But, again, just because something is enough to get you to break through, dose not mean it is the *perfect* dose. My personal perfect dose is 120g white vine with 1-2g mimosa.

Every color of vine is also different... Chacruna's potency varies upon the time of day it was harvested...

Again, I wish there was a more simple answer. If you are determined to break through, brew a lot, and just keep drinking... SLOWLY... until you feel it. Once you start to feel it, it will become easier to feel more. How does your head feel? How does your stomach feel? Nibbling some fruit will also potentiate (and can sweeten an otherwise bile-ful purge).

It can take two hours for the vine to kick in, BUT, while drinking, there are a few telltale signs that the vine is going to hit you. You may feel cold, the hair on your arms may stand up, your head may feel warm or dizzy, your stomach may feel like it's glowing. There should be some initial, immediate, "Hey! I'm in your body and I'm doing some work!" sensation from the Caapi. Maybe you will feel relaxed. If you experience any of this, chances are you took a DECENT dose, so definitely wait 1-1.5 hours before taking a booster in this event. If you feel ABSOLUTELY NOTHING from drinking, still wait another 20-30min to be certain it is really nothing, and then take a booster.

ms minxx thank you so so much for your wonderfully thorough and enthusiastic reply!! you have answered my question very thoroughly and i feel like i'm much better prepared now. i'll be sure to stay aware of my inner body to sense any subtle changes, and decide accordingly if i need to use a booster or not. Also i'm enthusiastically looking forward to building that intimate relationship with mama aya as you have described at many places on nexus.
Also, good advice about the fruits (didn't think about that before) and the potentiation. It reminds me of people's post where they mentioned that they didn't feel the aya for a long time, and then ate a piece or two of bread, and started feeling the aya coming on strong...interesting..
Once again ms minxx, thank you and thank you!! will report back after my first aya experience, which will be in like 2 weeks...*eagerly anticipating*

Thank you, thank you, thank you, Minxx

One other question.

How long is it after drinking the Aya dose the purge happens ? generly ?

Thnaks

It depends a lot. Sometimes it may be during the come up, so like half an hour to an hour in. At other points it may come quite late, like a couple of hours into the experience. Or if you have a weak stomach, it may be as soon as you try to drink it up... Or it may not come at all. Sorry for such a vague answer but it really does change a lot, even for the same person.

Thanks endlessness.

good info thanks.

I have to ditto that, unfortunately, there are NO rules for the purge!

In my experience, I have found I generally DON'T purge, unless I'm under a ton of emotional stress. But I know people who purge 100% of the time with the same materials.

The only thing to avoid is purging immediately after drinking/within the first hour. Sometimes, I have engaged in conversations with my stomach, used visualization, and massaged my esophagus in a downward motion to keep things down... Although, sometimes, even immediate purges can bring intense experiences.

The only real rule you can enforce is: grab a nice bucket, double-line it with some bags for easy cleanup, and never go ANYWHERE without it. Even if you have to run to the washroom for reasons other than a puke, TAKE THE BUCKET!! The purge is most cathartic when it strikes.

oh yeah I second the idea of the puke bucket being your faithful companion wherever you go, if you are not doing this outdoors

also trying to keep it all down for the first half an hour to an hour is indeed very good idea because otherwise you might lose some actives before they are absorbed.

thanks all for contributing to this particular thread. I joined Nexus to prepare for aya-izing, so this is MOST useful to me. Hopefully I"ll have something worthwhile to share shortly, too.

Up to now I've begun to learn about vine-only journeying, and already have many questions. I realize that there can be intra- and even inter-vine potency differences, and then there are differences between the red-yellow-black varieities, etc. But what about the age and thickness differences? Are 3" thick vines more potent than 1", all other things equal? Are the centers less potent than the outer layer, etc ? Or 30 yr old vines being proportionately stronger than a much younger vine?

I can see why one might want to calibrate the dosing with each new vine.

Do realise that walking can become somewhat difficult especially at first.
Best to do the first time indoors on a sofa or bed, near a toilet.

Also do understand that Aya will make you purge,
this is a fancy word for puking but also: it give you the shits (as in explosive diarea)

(dont let this frighten you, once you can wipe your ass half in hyperspace you can do anything)
Dont worryt it passes after the 'purge'.

Good tip is to do a session for the first time with a proper shaman, makes that first time a special one

Have a good one and be ready to get you ass kicked by the vine cause it a different thing from changa.
Learing about yourself and the universe can be very confronting

Still its the greatest thing there is!!
V

Random purge tip: I have also found it extremely useful to have a safe source of candlelight burning gently in the bathroom.

As for size and inner/outer bark, using vine with BOTH the inner AND the outer bark gives the most balanced experience. I forget which part adds which elements to the experience, but through personal experimentation, I have found that whole vine, inner and outer bark, brings the most effective and complete experience. Whole plants, always!

Older bark is said to be more potent, but I have heard the vine is mature enough when it is the thickness of a human finger. It feels almost criminal to cook the really old pieces, when I do acquire them; and, personally, I haven't found the older ones MORE potent, but SMOOTHER and of a slightly RICHER flavor.

"Full-bodied vine with a caramel bouquet and hints of cinnamon..."

can someone experienced answer this: Since SWIM doesn't have a non-aluminum pot, he was considering making the aya using THP instead. Is this an efficient method? On the THP Wiki, it says that the THP is more effective than 3x3 cooking; but then i don't understand why people still cook, since THP seems more efficient, easier and faster. Is there a difference in felt effects? Would you recommend using THP over cooking?

SWIM was planning to extract from the caapi vine using the THP, but is not sure if Viridis extraction would work just as efficiently with the THP (can someone tell me if it will or not?). On the Wiki, it states that Viridis requires hot water to be efficient with THP. In this case, i would like to know how efficient is Viridis exactly, compared to cooking? Would THP or cooking be preferred for Viridis?

Would it be better to just extract from the Caapi vine using THP, and cooking the Viridis separately? In this case, how long must SWIM cook the Viridis for? 3x3 washes? Also, is it ok to use an aluminum pot with Viridis? I know the vine partially degrades in contact with the aluminum, but does Viridis degrade as well?

Thanks for helping out nexians; i love you all forever

Nooooooooooo aluminum!! Nothing is worth risking your health... (and it's better to hear that from a fellow human than a 203598235092348023984 year old entity who can only speak in flames. )

I would recommend hunting down a good, stainless steel pot. I snagged a 20-liter veritable cauldron for $70... it was worth every cent.

Do you have an aunt or a grandma who would loan you a pot to "make a stew for some buddies"?

I cook because it works for me... it's the way I built my relationship with the vine and the way she prefers to be prepared. Building a THP is beyond my scope of comprehension, but, fortunately, boiling a pot is not. There is something magical about staring over a bubbling pot for nine hours. Things form in the steam... hisses and crackles come out of the pot... strange shapes appear... it is very interactive. There is also MUCH to be learned about your herbs from the smell...

It's intimacy. Warm and cuddly (or, boiling hot) intimacy.