I found the information in: "Hagers Handbuch der pharmazeutischen Praxis, Volume 3". They say that the ingredients in the roots irritate the skin and promote tumor groth in lab rats. I don't understand the science behind it but they applied an extract on the mice and after 24 weeks , 59% grew tumors. The book also advices against taking the root because of the tumor risk.

There seems to be one publication on that but i can'T seem to find it. I also can't check the sources "Hagers Handbuch" provides because i only saw it on google books and they tend to block out important pages...

"New skin irritants and tumor promoters of the daphnane and 1a-alkyldaphnane type from Synaptolepis kirkii and Synaptolepis retusa."

Maybe someone with more knowledge can check on that.

Its difficult to put these kinds of reports into any meaningful perspective especially when trying to extrapolate such findings between different species.It should also be borne in mind that such unfortunates such as lab rats are often exposed to criminally high concentrations of the compound in question and its dubious if humans would ever be exposed to this level-under normal circumstances, that is.

I figured, but that's why someone should check on that who can asses the risks. I think it's better to be safe than sorry, especially because this seems to be a plant we don'T have a lot of data on. Barely any scientific data and i can't find reports from experience. Phlux said, that kirkii is "very common". But that doesn'T make it very safe.

Being that SWIM is very interested in this "unknown" plant root and dream potential overall, SWIM did a quick search and found this paper that also talks about possible tumor and skin irritant properties found in the Kirkii root. Haven't read it all (just the abstract), but thought it may be useful. Will read it more when has time.

Were the amounts given? Realize that things like vitamin b6 can be lethal if dosed high enough.

i just wanted to mention something on usage.
we are using tiny amounts here - in za ppl actually use it rather differently and i didnt feel there would be a point in sharing that info so much.
they use it often as an emetic - they will take like a 200-300g peice of root kinda thing - chunder/jackpot - etc
its seems to be a local irritant - but its actives are in such low concentrations - at our doses im not even sure it acts as an irritant.
lets get all the facts together here - best to get this one figured out 100%.

also - ppl use this everyday - all muti stores sell it as one of their top 10 products and thats out of 1000s of products.
that would make this one of the top 10 most commonly used muti's in za.

iv been itching to take it before mushies (a dreamy strain) to see if it clears things up a bit - as its used to clear visions.

Thanks elusivemind for posting the paper. Unfortunatly, I can't make anything out of it, can'T even figure out the doses. Also thanks to Phlux for your input. I agree, it would be nice to get this one figured out, because kirkii is one remarkable plant, thats for sure!!

I hope it's safe. I like to use this root as well but something prevent me from using it more than a few days in the row.
The intensity of dreams probably and also I'm not sure if this one is responsible for that but I felt some cybersickness when doing some swimming...
MAybe it's emetic properties ? like one time I combined it with a light caapi brew and thought I might purge more than with this caapi dose alone. I didn't purge and manage to do my things.

!!!

Wow, people here are using...milligrams of the herb (in hundreds but still milligrams). Apart from being an irritant, does it have other effects from such a dosage? I mean if people here get effects from 300-400 mg ,and if in such dosages it has neurotrophic/neuroprotectant qualities, what are the effects of such huge dosages used for emesis?

im not sure - i have had a ubulawu brew offered to me more than once but rejected it every time - i was able to identify 14 different component plants - but i really dont feel comfortable using them in that manner until im better educated on their actives.
in one of the brews that was to be prepared for me i saw - estimated(but im good at estimating kirkii root weight as i buy it in bulk) - at least 400g of kirkii root.
the inyanga told me it would make me purge vigorously - i wasnt so amped -but he said the experience would be what i was looking for.
he described a good few of the roots - and i purchased some of them - i want to use and research each one individually.

one thing i noticed is that all dream herbs are prepared the same way - all via the foam method i posted - and all are taken in the day or morning - not anytime close to bed.
they are most often all combined too - the inyanga said each ingredient did something specific and they needed to be combined for full fx (hinterestingk gno ?)

side note - many many many many (cant emphasize how many) african medicines make one jackpot explosively - sometimes from both ends - i guess many tribes dig the purge.

Ah, well that sucks Now just to let all SWIMmers know, SWIM is not the best with the technical chemical side of deciphering papers of this magnitude (only kitchen chemistry and basic stuff)... so SWIM wasn't able to find much else out from the paper posted above.
SWIM did find though another paper that, even though it referred to the paper above about the tumor and irritant properties (doesn't go into great detail), it also sheds some light on the neurotrophic and Antileukemic properties of the roots too.
Sorry if my posting up whatever SWIM finds is annoying but trying to help out the best SWIM can with trying to figure out if this plant is safe or not...

But going with what Phlux said above, the active irritants are probably in incredibly low concentrations, especially if they are using it as an emetic at 200-300 gram doses .... or else they would probably notice the irritant properties way before they have their purge session

What are you talking about...your contributions are greatly appreciated!!

haha, well thank you. I just usually like to have answers though when presenting papers or research articles.... thats all... but i guess the best things in life are sometimes a mystery

and back to the topic...

Anyone who tries to post scientific literature gets an A+ in my book. Even if it's not dead on, it means SO much more to some people then anecdotal hulabaloo. Sorry to derail this further but I selfishly wanted to reward elusivemind .

Hahaha, many thanks Mydriasis.

So I finally had some more free time and did more searching and "reading/trying-to-understand" of different papers around the web. It seems when searching for anything relating to the tumor or irritant properties of the root, the papers always refer to the first paper I posted on this topic. So I looked a little deeper into that paper and others... and these are my findings... (in no particular order)

- The neurotrophic compound in Kirkii is kirkinine. In the articles that I have read, the finished extraction from the Kirkii plant was a colourless gum (Paper 1, page 1)

- "Compounds with neurotrophic activity are known, but kirkinine is remarkable for its potency and structural diversity when compared with all other compounds endowed with NGF-like activity described so far" (Paper 1, page 2) AKA should have a lot more attention then it currently does

- Gnidimacrin is the anti-leukemic compound in the plant roots. Approximate isolation results are 0.0005% (no reference to isolation number). (Link 1)

-Kirkinine isolation was approxamitly 0.00002%. (again no reference to isolation number) (Link 1)

- "Previous studies led to the isolation of numerous phorbol and related esters, some of which showed powerful skin irritancy as well as antineoplastic and immunostimulating activities." (Paper 1, page 1) Still looking into which compounds are responsible for the tumor growth and now the antineoplastic (cancer fighting) and immunostimlating activities (stimulates the immune system, like Maitake mushrooms )

SIDE NOTE:
- As I was looking into it more it seems that "9,13,14-ortho-(2-hexadecenoate)" and the "12B-acetoxy derivative of 9,13,14-ortho-(2-hexadecenoate)" are the most potent tumor promotors from the 1a-Alkyldaphnane type of DTE (Diterpene Esters) isolated, and "9,13,14-ortho-(2E-hexadecenoate)" was the most potent from the Daphnane type DTE isolates. Just throwing this information up there to see if any SWIMmers can help verify this and maybe help find more information on these DTE's.
I found this information in the first paper I posted on this topic on page 8 under the italicize heading "Tumor promoting activity -structure/activity relations"


So that is the information I have been able to find so far. But with the little known information on the tumor and irritant properties and being that it IS sold at multi stores, etc as Phlux stated, its looking more like they are extremely low concentrations in the root.

Web Reference

Link 1

And here is the paper cause I forgot to add the new one to the post above

I've been having a lot of dream activity lately and I'm very interested in kirkii. I hope it is safe because I want to order some. Do you guys think it is safe to take. Hearing things like "59% grew tumors" turns me off to the idea. Calea never did anything for me...

hahah - hulabaloo - check harry enfield - frightening diseases of the mind - on youtube.

so what's the verdict on this stuff... safe to experiment with in small amounts? or is there something to this tumor risk idea?

I'm also interested in any updates.

My order just arrived, but after seeing this thread, I'm hesitant to start taking it. Being an ex-smoker, I sure as hell don't want any carcinogenic substances in my body.