I am an atheist in the negative sense (I don't believe in god but wouldn't say "there is no god" ). I have read The Spirit Molecule where a patient joked "you can be an atheist until 0.4 <mg/kg>" and Rick seemed to agree. I have had large lsd and mushroom doses before but long ago, had very strange, horrible and wonderful experiences but nothing I remember relating to anything involving god or anything very spiritual. I am curious if anyone has converted to being a theist, or an agnostic becoming an agnostic theist, or any push in that direction, from spice or related substances. I am content with my view of there being no god and how evolution made life, but do wish there was more sometimes. I'm also curious about the intense connections and changes, reality based or not, psychedelics can definitely form in the mind.

Hi atheistpeace,

If you are a real atheist and fairly confident for your beliefs you shouldn' t be afraid to challenge yourself with a high dose, should you?

BTW, I'm an atheist myself, and I clearly see what you mean by referring to your lsd and mushroom trips. My bet is that no, you won't be pushed away from atheism from a high dose of spice . Different folk are different folk however and the possibility that you may change beliefs cannot be excluded. Plus, I think that the key is as to how you interpret the experience - you may as well interpret it as a definite existence of god or a dramatically fantastic response of your mind. And this more-or-less holds true for plenty of thinks in life. Just consider two guys in a idyllic natural setting; one may say this beauty and order and complexity around him is definite existence of god, while the other may not think the same thing exactly!

Hey Ronue,

I'm definitely up for the challenge You're right in that I'll interpret it as something amazing in my head unless something phenomenal happens. Its nice to see another atheist here.

Something AMAZING in your head is definitvly God's nature !

Read The Phenomenon of Man by Teilhard De Chardin, Followed by, The Book on the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are by Alan Watts

SWIM asked me to transcribe this:

"Ever read The God Gene?

I am personally an omnist/omnitheist, that is, I follow the post-structuralist actualization of personalized spirituality...basically, I believe that there does indeed exist a spiritual dynamic, as evidenced by the cross-cultural universality of certain forms of spiritual experience, however our interpretations of it through language are clouded by our cultural context and thus, organized religion is the result of cultural phenomena rather then spiritual experience. Despite my beliefs, I do realize that the universality of some spiritual experiences, such as OBE and "all is one"/"supreme connectedness" could, in fact, be interpreted to mean that spirituality is simply an affect of biology...

My spirituality has been solidified by a number of experiences but the most important of these was an experience brought on by the substance LSD. I underwent a variation of the "all is one" experience that was isolated to my intellect, that is, I felt for a moment as though I was unified with the noosphere (collective consciousness of all thought and idea) or that I was engulfed by the intellect of a supreme creator. This personal, spiritual experience was extremely powerful and important to me, and it, along with others, made me progress from being a staunch atheist to an agnostic to an omnist.

However, just because I do indeed believe in a form of spirituality and am a spiritual person, this does not mean that I cannot come up with atheistic explanations for the experiences I have had. The book, the God Gene, pulls from various research sources and hypothesizes that there is a collection of protein-encoding genes that correlate with spiritual belief and/or religious behavior. This gene is related to protein synthesis in the serotogenic system (5-HT) and what do we know about the tryptamines and phenethylamines? Well, they act only on the serotogenic system! It is therefore at least a possibility to suggest that these substances may promote the expression of the so-called "God gene".... I mean, if phenethylamines and amphetamines can change the texture of peoples hair and lighten or darken their eye color by effecting gene expression, why can't tryptamines and phenethylamines effect gene expression in this way?

IMPORTANT NOTE: I am not suggesting that any tryptamine or phenethylamine is a mutagen, as countless studies have confirmed this not to be true, however, GENE EXPRESSION has nothing to do with the integrity or form of DNA, it in fact, has to do with the integrity and form of Histones, proteins found on DNA strands that dictate the shape and density of the strand as well as repress and activate certain genes."

Really nice opinions TrYpt / PhEnEtHyl -AMinE, I've just ordered the book and I am looking forward to read it.

It should be noted however that it does not come as a surprise to find out about the existence of these so-called "god gene(s)" since spirituality is a human function / tendency. Similarly, other scientists find "alcoholism genes", "depression genes" etcetera.

Now, the task of ascribing names to these genes is fairly difficult and possibly misleading sometimes. And that is because terms like spirituality, alcohol dependence and depression can only be defined in a social context and are strongly influenced by the latter. So to speak, the "god gene(s)" are genes that have these X, Y, Z functions which, under certain social context may undertake the role of expressing the feeling of spirituality.

On the technical point of view, geneticists that trying to identify these genes are undertaking a major task and their analyses often leave many caveats open. This is normal for almost every piece of science, and for this reason I am also interested in reading the primary research papers and not relying only on layman's interpretations.

It probably depends on circumstances, like if you've had a religious upbringing. I personally have had many experiences in wich i felt like being in contact with something divine or godlike. But it's wise to keep your mind open for the possibillity that religious/spiritual experiences are illusional, tricks of the brain. On the other hand, when something physical like a brain is capable of generating a counsciousness, it could be possible that the universe itself or, whatever other system is capble of doing the same. I personnaly think that experiences TrYpt/PhEnEtHyl- AMinE refers to could very wel be just electrical patterns generated by the brain. I said on another thread that in ancient times people thought of phenomenons like lightning or vulcanic eruptions, that they were caused by god's being angry and that if you look at the mathematical pattern of these phenomenons, they share some features with anger (of a potential being slowly build up and when over a threshold being quickly released in a certain pattern) and it's also a fact that the same mathematical principles are expressed everywhere in nature, since these mathematical principles are expressions of the most basic laws of nature. So i think that the patterns of electrical activity, generated by the brain are bound to the same mathematical principles you see being expressed throughout nature. So if you turn antropomorphic views inside-out and look at human states of mind being simillar with principles in the universe (instead of the other way round) so basic mathematical structures would be 'encoded' with a certain meaning, not only would the experience of transcendence of feelings like 'love'or 'being' be explained, but also transcendence itself and our tendency towards this attitudes. It would be a tendency of us to a sort of 'tracing back' of our own feelings to their most basic nature, to where it's elementary shapes are revealed. A tendency, thus to simplify experiences, to efficiancy.

"I am personally an omnist/omnitheist, that is, I follow the post-structuralist actualization of personalized spirituality...basically, I believe that there does indeed exist a spiritual dynamic, as evidenced by the cross-cultural universality of certain forms of spiritual experience, however our interpretations of it through language are clouded by our cultural context and thus, organized religion is the result of cultural phenomena rather then spiritual experience"

thats an omnist huh? I think I'm one

I was raised Catholic in a rather devout family, but quickly became an atheist at the age of reason, that being when I was seven and began questioning what exactly my religious teachers were telling me. As I grew, I grew not to accept God based on others' faith, but my own personal understanding. Since everything seemed to be pointing in the direction that there is no God, I followed the logical explanation I was developing in myself.

Now I have taken heroic doses of cubensis and tried many different "entheogens" with varying results, but it wasn't until a particular trip where a close friend of mine and I entered the Mind of Clear Light. I wouldn't exactly consider myself a Buddhist, but I think there is a lot of value in their teachings.

I'm certainly no nihilist, and the existence of some God is an interesting concept, but I am not troubled whether there is or isn't. I've something of value by entering into the Mind of Clear Light, something that makes me more than an atheist, but adopting no one religion.

As the theosophists say, "There is no religion higher than Truth."

What was the entheogen that allowed you to enter the MCL ?

Pure MDMA, MDA and MDE. I always test my pills before ingestion and this one was particular pure.

I should note that entheogens are merely the catalyst and I believe the immense empathy, compassion no matter the situation, was what allowed me to enter.

I used to be president and founder of the Atheist Student group at my university.
Hardcore atheist.
Then I discovered LSD, which made me open my mind up a bit.
After five years or so I do believe in "God", but only from direct experience, not from philosophical justifications, or from a book, or from church, etc.

I would never recommend belief in "God" without firsthand experience.
Thats what it took to convince me.
But my belief in God may not be the same thing that you ascribe to the notion of God.
God is just the most proper name for what I consider to be a life force that feeds reality.
It is beyond description and language.
Psychedelics were the key that unlocked my mind to such a possibility.

Other than that, I remain a staunch evolutionist.
Most of my beliefs haven't changed really.
I am more open to religious experience. I think psychedelics played a role throughout human history and evolution. I find this a more scientific/rational approach to religion, as opposed to outright rejection.
Ingest entheogens => experience the divine.
Humans have been doing this for a long time.
Maybe there is something there?

Until science/atheism can rationally incorporate psychedelics into its popular worldview,
then in my opinion, the common materialistic view of the universe fails utterly. Ditto for religious worldviews that shun entheogens.

I was a very strong atheist.. not only atheist but anti-theist. I saw the infantile aspect of organized religions, how people are gullible and believe all sorts of stories, how hypocritical people going to church are (my family is adventist, and I saw how much bullshit there was in their church, how people were always gossiping about each other, etc)

I was always very rational skeptic person (still am, but in a different way), so the idea of a ´father in the sky´ bothered me to the point of getting angry and feeling superior to those who believed in it

and then I took psychedelics

For me, the question of believing or not believing in God doesnt make sense anymore. I dont know who said it, but I can agree with to some extent, that ´religion is for those who never had a genuine spiritual experience´.

First I realized all religions talk about the same thing, but each was adapted to their historical context. Then I realized that there were as many ´gods´ as there were levels of understanding the world. My experiences showed me that the ´father in the sky´ god is only a projection of people´s ideals, their inability to take responsibility for their own actions, a pleasant story that is a psychological mechanism to defend against confronting the paradoxes of life, and so on. At the same time, I saw that there was a bottom of truth to it, except it had been distorted over and over so that very little of the original teachings remain.

For me, God has acquired a new meaning.. I could describe it in several ways, like ´the holographic principle of reality´, the ´unity behind multiplicity´, the ´Universal Consciousness´, the ´Underlying Order´, the ´Universal Harmony´, the ´Whole behind all parts´ and so on.. I dont view it in an anthropomorphic way, I dont ascribe feelings such as anger or happyness to it, I dont assign a gender to it. I just know by direct experience that there is a force behind it all, and to me both science and religion will (or should) converge to it, and not diverge because of it.

I did. I went from atheist/agnostic to full blown, animistic theist in a period of about two years. My idea of God (and god) is a little different than your average theist, but nevertheless it's my belief that "God" is all things, and god is just a mentor who decided to stay behind

m

I am personnaly very undecided about wheter or not i believe in god. It seems to be some everlasting struggle going on inside my head/ soul. I want to believe there is something good, and i must admit it sometimes feels as if there is such a thing. But then there is all this useless suffering as well.

I think its possible to believe in anything.

no matter how many times SWIM sees the light he still comes back to some fundamental questions about god the universe and everything that keep in hanging between two conclusions.

so in your struggle for belief, you try to equate god with good, and suffering/evil is some sort of sign that god doesnt exist..

for me, the term ´god´ is not connected with something good.. good and evil are both equal necessary part of existence, expressions of the law of trinity (positive, negative and neutral or unity of both).. so for me evil is not a sign of no god, and neither is good a sign of god..



well, its great that you dont come back with all answers and anybody who pretends to do is lying or delusional

might I ask what are the two conclusions?

I certainly don't believe in the classic western view of god as an old white guy, with a long beard, wearing robes, living in a castle in the clouds!!
I also don't feel religion has anything, what so ever, to do with spirituality!!! Modern religion is just another way to make money and control people. ...And every single one of them is saying the same fucking thing!!! How do wars get started over tiny details of the same exact idea!!

However, I don't see how a person could look at the earth and how it works within the rest of the solar system and how that works within the rest of the universe, or even to look at a simple flower in bloom & evrything that goes into that happening and not think there is some kind of direction to our existence.

I absolutely do not have anything figured out for fact, but I feel that "god" is us!! Not just humans, everything!! That force behind all the meat and the stone!!

If you look at the earth from out in space, you see a number of land masses, separated by water. But if you removed all that water, the land is all connected underneath!!! Its all one big piece of land, with parts sticking up out of the water that only appear to be separated!!

That is how I view us as god. If we were to remove all of our physical bodies (i.e. death), the meat that separates us from being one mind, we could experience ourselves as one again.
As god!!!
One would know everything, instant knowledge!! One could experience everything, could be anywhere, at any time, instantly!!
Certain aspects of a DMT or Ayauasca experience hint at this as well!!

There are also Quantum Physics studies that support this by stating that our minds are actually responsible for pushing our reality into existance!! I don't remember all the details & its way too much to go into here anyway. Plus I'm no scientist!!
There are countless books and studies that can be found that go into this and other mind blowing facts/theory's etc..
Two books I can think of right now are:
The Elegant Universe by, Brian Greene
and
The Holographic Mind, I can't remember who wrote that one.

Both of those books are over 5 years old, if not more, so you could probably find something a lot newer that has more up to date info!!

WS