No problem. I don't judge others different than me, I embrace the fact we are all different.

Typically I stay out of religious talks on this forum because my purpose here is not religious. Religion and politics seem to bring the threads to new levels. I am here to learn about our plant teachers and it ends there for the most part.

Isn't there a dinner table rule about no religion and politics ha? My dad always says that

If you don't want to contemplate these topics, then do not read, nor contribute to threads about them. Simple as that.

If you don't like the topic change the channel, do not pull the plug on the broadcasting station.

i am very intersted in this topic I started this thread. I was jus sayin that to lighten the mood comic relief if you want to call it that

it would be stupid to believe that there is no higher authority. I'm not sure what it is and its not a guy with a beard but this world is too perfect forthere not to be. Don't you think?

actually the universe looks exactly like it should look if it was not designed.

^^Agreed. "Perfect" just regards a relative conception.

Evidence please.

dark matter and anti-matter.

Stephen Wolfram's A New Kind of Science.

How is this evidence for the absence of a "Higher Power" that both contains and is more than the universe...assuming this is what you were saying? Sounds like you have some intriguing ideas on the matter.

Life on earth is a great case study against the idea of a designer.

No one claimed evidence for absence. No one said anything regarding a "Higher Power". Just that what evidence we have, matches a stochastic model.

LOL, dark matter...

bzzzt...try again.

How so?

I guess it would depend on what kind of designer you are envisioning.

If life is the product of a special creation than god is a thrifty son of a bitch. In the case of a special creation there is no reason for life to share so many features and genetic material. If there is a designer, he either designed everything to look like evolution had taken place or he seeded our planet with the building blocks of life and let evolution take place. I'm not much into physics and I don't know much about the big bang theory, but it is clear to me that life on this planet was not the product of a special creation. It was the product of evolution. I personally choose to extrapolate that and feel that since our biological diversity is not the product of a designer, than our universe isn't either.

Please, expand upon this statement.

I still don't see how this is a case against a creator, an anthropocentric creator sure, but is that what we are really talking about here?. I would argue until my face turned blue against the idea of a special creation...as someone said, "If we are the only life in the universe, it sure is a whole lot of wasted space."

If the universe was created with the form and intention for the evolution of life, then you would have a universe desiged for life. The creator need do nothing but start the process of the big bang, and let it go from there. Evolution is design, a brillant one at that. I agree that it works against the idea of an involved creator, but that in turn is just narrowing the definition of a creator to a very limited range of possibilites.

It seems perfectly plausible to me that a universe that appears not to need a creator, would actually have one. They are not mutually exclusive. Perhaps we are not meant to have access to the deeper mysteries of our existence at this point in our evolution?

I see what your saying and I don't shut myself off from the possibility of a god. But I have no reason to believe that there is one so I don't. If anyone could give me a solid tangible piece of evidence, even one that was deductively reasoned, I'll listen. I guess I just speak more against the Abrahamic religions than the possibility of a god in general. Those pesky fundamentalist are quite a nuisance over here in america.

I agree with you completely. Before my beliefs were changed based on personal experience, I was exactly where you are, an agnostic leaning toward athiesm. If you come across evidence (which will always be subjective), you'll definately know it. All religions were constructed by man, and therefore are inherently false. Especially the Abrahamic traditions which posit a wholly fantastical and illogical notion of a creator in my opinion.

On Coast to Coast AM tonight, George Noory welcomes astrophysicist and author Dr. Bernard Haisch, who'll discuss his theory that the universe is a product of an intelligence, and show how this is supported by recent astrophysical findings. Could be interesting...

There is some good deductive reasoning out there, though of course it won't resonate with everyone. The Buddhists have a long detailed tradition, St. Augustine makes some compelling arguments, as do some modern thinkers. Just have to find someone who can explain it in a way that resonates with you...but I don't think anyone can truly believe until they have a personal experience.