c'mon, please... That's what the parenthetical info was about. It is a REAL life example. I KNOW THE GUY. and he is no shaman. He charges a fortune, and is the pretender of pretenders, a fool among fools. But if revenue is a measure of success, he is by all accounts a successful neo-shaman. I went to the trouble of including the parentheses so I wouldn't have to elaborate. We are in agreement judging by your previous statements in the post, but you seem to be scrutinizing my writing looking for a fight nevertheless.
My only point is that not everyone claiming to be a shaman is one, AND every doctor that claims to be one is. you seem to be going out of your way to misunderstand me.

And as an aside, not everyone can afford the cash or the time to go to Peru to search for a good shaman. That's just reality. And most people I know in serious mental distress wouldn't have the wherewithal, the interest, or resourcefulness to book a flight, navigate through a new country and culture, sort through the various options and rationally weigh the details to evaluate someone's shamanic credentials.

Am i the one who's crazy? this seems self-evident to me...

JBArk

You're not crazy at all, in my estimation anyway.

I think it's worth noting that a healthy(?) percentage of registered members here at the Nexus refer to themselves as shamans - and they do so without the slightest hint of irony whatsoever. Again, I think this is marginalizing, and again, it's beside the point - but it's a pretty solid indicator that the shamanic accredidation guidelines are maybe not so stringent...

Im not looking for a fight at all... we dont really do that here.

"c'mon, please... That's what the parenthetical info was about. It is a REAL life example. I KNOW THE GUY. and he is no shaman. He charges a fortune, and is the pretender of pretenders, a fool among fools. But if revenue is a measure of success, he is by all accounts a successful neo-shaman."

In my last post, I said... that if he is effective in actually helping people, not if he is effective in making himself money. People pay for all kinds of quackery and quacks make a lot of money doing it, always have! Just because he is making money doesnt mean he is a good healer.

"My only point is that not everyone claiming to be a shaman is one, AND every doctor that claims to be one is. you seem to be going out of your way to misunderstand me."

I understand your point just fine... you seem to be going out of your way not to read what I have written, or at least thats how it appears.... sigh... that does not mean however that people getting help from some one claiming to be a shaman is not getting the help they need. I would preffer not to argue.

"And as an aside, not everyone can afford the cash or the time to go to Peru to search for a good shaman. That's just reality. And most people I know in serious mental distress wouldn't have the wherewithal, the interest, or resourcefulness to book a flight, navigate through a new country and culture, sort through the various options and rationally weigh the details to evaluate someone's shamanic credentials."

Its true most people in the united states are going to see a doctor not a shaman. What we could see more of however which would be nice is a more clinical combo with transpersonal psych in the mental health system. That unfortunately is not going to happen until people start funding it and thats probably not going to happen... So until there is some mysterious change in western paradigms... if people want help that is an alternative to
western medicine they will have to seek help from non accredited healers and well buy beware.

My point though was that your requirement for shamanic credentials is ridiculous.

is funny because its true! I dont think that there is anything wrong with that either! love this place!
its funny though california is like that too... every one in california is a shaman. Someone down there told me once that is is a shamanic culture in california... cracked me up! maybe they are though! whos to say and whats yer motive for saying it?! lol

I guess our concerns are falling on deaf ears then. I just hope in their daily lives they are nothing like this guy I know. Shame on him, and any other profiteers who read a few books and do a handful of psychedelics to open up a shaman business and discredit the real shamans out there, not to mention, more to the point, putting others' personal safety and mental health at risk.

But I'm getting a little off topic...ooops.

JBArk

p.s.



exactly? who IS to say? maybe they are, and maybe they aren't. I for one refuse to play dice with my sanity, and will definitely refrain from doing it with others'. I just wish everyone could see eye to eye and at least recognize the dangers.

you really are trying to pick a fight. I have never petitioned for "shamanic credentials". You are inferring that from my statement that there are none. Which isn't ridiculous. it's true. It may be ridiculous that it IS true, but your contention that I have such requirements is simply a misreading of what I wrote.

Nuff said.

JBArk

Totally I hope that most of them are not profiteering deuchbags myself... You can always demand integrity from members of your community and hopefuly that'll do.

People are not going to see eye to eye here jbark and the dangers that you see are not really dangers that every one else sees...
you are going to play dice with your sanity? it doesnt really work that way! Do you have a past history of psychosis and are now stabilized? human beings that are not prepsychotic or have a history of psychosis are not really going to require you to worry about them to much. Drugs do not make people psychotic long term (lol) any way my psycho pharmacology prof taught us that. Individuals are predisposed for psychosis and it just takes the right trigger. Psychoactive substances do not make one mentally ill out side of methamphetamine and MDMA laced with other amphetamines. Tramua though... tramua is real... people can and do get traumatized at times due to their experiences with entheogens...thats true. But PTSD is very different then psychosis.

any way worry about you! This is all just fear and control drama! Your the only on ethat you have control off and that I know bothers a lot of people! trust trust trust....

Im not trying to pick a fight... but i get the sense that your a fighter... ah well...

What it feels like your saying is that because there are no credentials they cant be trusted. Am I correct?

either way... i would say you shouldnt trust all shamans... I dont trust most shamans. but some I meet and I trust them right off the bat... I think people have way to many assumptions about shamans honestly...

Really not a fighter. just hate being misunderstood. Guess that's my problem though! Also kinda feels like there are a few here who are disagreeing to agree...



No what I am saying is that (as you have said) you can't really know. Some can be trusted others not. and that's playing dice. For a little existential malaise, sounds good. But full blown schizophrenia or manic depression? just not worth the risk. IMO, of course. But it goes beyond opinion when others are doling it out as legitimate advice with too little information, their personal dogma being proffered at the expense of some impressionable mind.



so are we disagreeing to agree? much rather agree to disagree...

JBArk

well said pandora!

What do I know, pandora? The only time anyone seeks my counsel via PM is when they write to ask if Antrocles is really as dreamy in person.

I hear ya...being misunderstood sucks.
Full blown schizophrenia and manic depression can be cured with shamanry, at least there are reports of this occurring. But I know what you mean...most folks doing the shaman"ism" gig here in the west are just some psychotherapy song and dance in shamans regalia. But I have met some that are really really good! and really I dont think its playing dice if they have that sort of reputation. But even then our right in that your not going to run into these folks often.

"at the expense of some impressionable mind."

you know... if these folks dont touch the hot burner how are they going to know not to touch it? These are the folks that are willfully ignorant, and the only way to help them is to let them get burned. Or they are in such denile about their condition, and delusional to boot but in a way that chooses delusions over reality. You see this a lot with people that have thought disorders, its not the mental illness in that situation its the personality thats to blame.

a note on trusting shamans...

When I say I dont trust all shamans, that does not mean i dont trust them because they might be fakes, or frauds. I dont trust them because I know shamans, and I know that not all shamans are to be trusted. Which is kinda coming from a different point of view then you. I dont trust them because I thinking their fake... I dont trust them because they are powerful and dont always have the best intentions.
when I meet a shaman i know they are a shaman, when I meet some one who says they are I can tell if they are not, and those I dont think of as shamans. In nepal they call them chicken shamans... because they just do a lot of show and kill chickens lol.

I agree with Pandora.

I personally am not to big at all on western main stream medicine, becasue I have had first hand experience with it as a sick person saw how backwards some of it is..So when it comes to allopathic doctors and big pharma I refuse to just sit back and just watch others go through the same bullshit I did.

Schizophrenia I have no experiene with, other than through other people I know/knew. There are degrees to the whole thing..my great grandmother was schizophrenic and would chase my grandmother around with a steakknife as a child..she needed to be in the institution she was in..others are labled rediculous things by doctors like "paranoid schizophrenic" for not enjoying slavery like the rest of society..while others really do have unfounded paranoi..

THis whole "shamanism" thing is old by now..its all been said before 100100000000 times.

I agree with art. we shouldn't offer medical advice. even if one of us was an MD we can't diagnose via the internet it's the bottom line.

What is medicine for one is poison for another.

I don't know whether making a rule would really help with this, since we see how often people pop in asking about where to buy certain drugs.

It seems to me that a little confusion has arisen though, from my understanding of Art and jbark's position. I honestly do not think that any of the advice Pandora provides, fell within the purview. I have recently seen a good amount of people, when mentioning they have been undergoing a lot of distress, getting told to keep pushing the limit. It does seem very dangerous to me, and I don't know what else we can do but provide counter-points.

I guess I don't really have anything to contribute, except to ask that people really think seriously about the kind of advice they give. It often appears that people flippantly address someone's question, without trying to appreciate the state of mind it comes from. Then again, I always prefer a precautionary approach when it comes to other individuals, compared to myself.

I think the thing that needs to be avoided is trying to PRESCRIBE this or that to someone..noone should be telling anyone to go take this or that or stop taking something..but stating scientific findings on for example herbal medicine vs some other approach in relation to a certain ailment I dont see a problem with.

You should never just take advice from some stranger over the internet anyway, you should always go research everything thoroughly yourself personally..and then take it to someone qualifiied in person. Dont put your health in the hands of some faceless internet person.

Seriously this is all we need...
Big old caveat in the FAQ

This is very true, and the reason why we shouldnt tell anyone to or not to take ANYTHING. You shoudl ALWAYS get medical advice from a certified professional that can thouroughly evaluate your situation..that is impossible over the internet.

That is diff though from giving others useful links to alternative treatments and such, that they can research themselves and TAKE TO A PROFESSIONAL..

If I didnt have other people do this for me I dont know where the hell I would be right now, but I wouldnt be healthy thats for sure..I had other suggest things, that I then researched further..took to various mainstream doctors, was laughed at by most of them..eventaully was referred to a naturalpathic physician who was able to help me..she wasnt mainstream at all..but she was a qualified professsional.

There have been a few threads in the last few months, one in particular just a week or so ago, that are perfect examples of what I believe Art is trying to avoid. The threads were started by someone who was clearly (no, I'm not a doctor, but I'm also not a fool) having mental difficulties. They told their stories and were given advice by Nexus members.
Some of it was advice about whether or not to seek/continue medical help. Both of these folks seemed vulnerable due to their respective experiences, and although no one in thier right mind would seek medical advice on the internet as Dorge pointed out, people do sometimes seek advice about what to do, or not to do next when they are having troubles.

Telling people not to seek medical help is stupid and irresponsible. Early intervention can mean the difference between getting better, or descending into a schizophrenic state that may be be permanent.

If someone said "my blood sugar is 450, should I see a doctor?", would anyone here say "no, big pharma makes all the insulin, go smoke a bowl and focus on your pancreas chakra". Of course not. That advice would kill.

Why are mental disorders any different?

Pokey

Thank you Pokey for contributing another reasonable voice to the argument. It seems that those who wish to encourage others in extreme distress to seek qualified help are in a minority here at the otherwise very thoughtful and helpful Nexus. I just wonder why there is so much hate levelled towards available avenues of help here. Despite opinions expressed here, I believe there is a lot of good in AND outside this community, and i fail to understand the onesidedness of the vast majority of arguments here. Psychedelics are a powerful tool and a key to a great many things, but people, get off your high horse - there is a lot of good beyond them, as well. Someone here accused me of elitism... look in the mirror, and if that is not enough, look up the defnition of elitism and apply it to a number of the posts here. I believe there are a great number of good, fantastic, thoughtful people here on this forum, but lets not let entheogens blind us. They are purported to do exactly the opposite - so why all the hate? Help people, and encourage them to seek help along the appropriate avenues. And have the humility to say "I don't know", cause i certainly don't (know,that is...). And I have a personal policy of admitting it and deferring to those who are more likely to.

Health and good spirits in this difficult time,

JBArk