Hey Digglover,

Your question is a very legitimate one and shows that deep down, you have the desire to find out what this whole business of "life" and the universe is all about.

Conditioning is present in us human beings from our first acquisition of sentience and perception throughout our lives until death due to our genetic roots as social creatures. Therefor, the degree of conditioning greatly depends, as you so graciously put it, on our environment and upbringing. To think that you can free yourself totally from all conditioning I think is itself such a colossal task (I have termed it the 13th labor of Hercules for fun) that whenever you attempt it you realize that it is an merely an illusion. For all practical purposes it cannot be done, nor I believe would you want to since this would interfere with your ability to function in society.

If you cannot free yourself from the chains of you conditioning, then what is there left to do? If you are waiting for me to give you an answer, I must apologize because I cannot provide you with one. Nor can any book, teacher, philosophy, religion or dogma. By actively seeking answers from the outer with the "I really want to change, tell me how" mentality, you inevitably fall into another set of conditioning, succumbing to the belief in yet another authority outside yourself. What I can suggest, however, is that you simply withdraw your energy from trying to overcome your conditioning, and begin to observe it. Constantly watch yourself. Embrace it and accept it as the way things are at the moment. Watch carefully with great attention your actions and those of others with, and observe how they stem from this conditioning. In this manner you will begin to probe the depths of your self, examining who you are on a fundamental level. Perhaps then an answer will surface from the murky waters of your mind-controlled self.

How true!

Most will listen to and read only that proves that they already believe?

To be really open-minded is another Herculean task.

Do not seek the truth, just drop your opinions.

That's why I try to spread skepticism at every turn. I find skepticism to be loads more valuable than certain belief. Rather than explicitly denying beliefs, I find it best to simply question them, and let them stand or fall on their own merits.... To be open-minded, but not so open that ones' brain falls out

I never was a very religous person. My family neither.
In my younger days, i tried to be atheistic and philosophical.
Soon I discovered that there is something in between those two extremes (philosphy and religion).

And I discovered that there is meditation and awareness, which is the quintessence of every religion.

It is just stupid that words (and every religion has their holy books) can be the ultimate truth.

Everybody has to discover himself, not believe in some man-made dogma.
Every religion is a dogma. Because you have to believe in it.

You don't need to believe in meditation or awareness nor love.

They are here, no matter if you believe in them or not!

I'm really fascinated that the big world-religions still expect the public to buy their outdated idiotic rituals and believs.

Real morality and altruistic behavior is not something which you do in order to be a "good" man,
no,
You ARE a good man and therefore your morality is good and you are more and more giving.


Religion is the wrong way!
Spirituality is the only way!

It is not that simple. All of these could be put to good use. Over the centuries humanity developed lots of useful ideas, approaches and tools. Try them, see of they work for you. No need to invent the lightbulb.

Sometimes it is OK to use conditioned patterns as long as you are conscious of them. You cannot change that of which you are not aware. So the advice to watch yourself is very important. First you will start noticing these patterns when they are well under way. Do not try to subvert them. In time you will be noticing them approaching. Later on you will have time to decide if this particular subroutine is useful under current circumstances or not.

Trickster, read my posts properly. You have misunderstood me and you are making incorrect assumptions about my views. You seem to know little about the history of Christianity because some of your statements are plain wrong. Search for my many previous posts on the subject for my many criticisms of all organised religions.





Examples of Jesus's intolerance? I read the Bible age 16 and noted down every single injustice and contradiction. Most of the Bible was easy to dismiss. There was very little that I could criticise Jesus for. The only thing one could say he did wrong was to tell people that there was a heaven waiting for them... and it is not my place to say he was lying there. The Bible is full of intolerance, yes. Jesus, no. He was a radical prophet who dismissed much of what went before, so much so that a new and ideologically very different religion emerged. The religion was corrupted by the Roman Empire, yes, but that was not his doing. Have a read, then tell me if you still think I'm wrong.



Who cares if he was original or not? Honestly. I don't know and it doesn't matter. I doubt you or I have ever said anything original in our lives. Who has? Einstein, Newton. It's pretty hard to prove that anything said on the subject of ethics or religion is truly original.


Can you provide a reference for Jesus's alleged homophobia please, I'm surprised to hear that? I'm pretty sure I did not find that when I made my notes, and I was quite fastidious. It's possible that I missed something or have forgotten something, but I would've pounced on a point that juicy immediately. All I found in the entire book was "Thou shalt not have sex with another man: god hates that" which appeared twice, identical phrasing very on. I think it was Deutoronomy and Leviticus, something like that.

Yes I do mean "Jesus [as described in the gospels] was a cool guy". I've heard all sorts of speculation, like that he was actually a freedom fighter, and of course he may not have even existed. We will probably never know, and personally I'm not bothered either way because I'm not a Christian. I am not counting anything anyone said he said later on in the bible, only that which Jesus is described as saying in quotation marks in the gospels. By the way, the heretical gospels are interesting for comparison of you really want to get into it, particularly Thomas (the gnostic gospel) and Mary Magdalene's feminist take with men and women standing as equals. In one it is said that Yahweh is a different older god and Jesus is the new one, in another that Jesus was human, and in yet another that he was god himself. I've only read Thomas, I watched a documentary on the others.

I'm not interested in discussion religion. I was saying that stuff to help Digglover with his problems. That's what this thread is meant to be about. Last thing we need is more militant atheism on here. In both philosophy and science the debate on the nature of the universe and what part 'god' may play in this in whatever unconventional form is still not over. Hence why many famous brilliant scientists were and are believers, and why many philosophers still sit on the fence shrugging their shoulders! I've done the "organised religion is bad m'kay" debate to death before on here, and yes my views have mellowed on religion a little but not on the corruptors of organised religion.

Trickster, in case you're wondering, philosophically anything is possible really, but I choose to trust in science and I veer towards either atheism or the idea that existence itself is 'god' and we are all part of 'god'. I hope the second and I fear the first.

Yup they sure are..All i did was take lots of psychedelics and looked around..wasnt hard either to see how much of it was all a bunch of worthless bullshit..I am more and more disillusioned with western society in general with each new day.

Why worry about jesus or the church?..it's not going to get you anywhere..who cares about jesus?..what is the reality of jesus and a story book going to do for you?.. reguardless of what jesus may or may not have done,whats important is YOUR experiences in the here and now..what do YOU think..dont live your life based on road maps someone else drew.

Haha, I was trying to ease him out gently but Fractal is going for the jugular! He is most probably right though, philosophers and scientists alike generally agree that god as presented literally in the Abrahimic and other religions is, well, unrealistic to say the least. That doesn't count god out in some form though, it's still a matter of belief. And probably always will be, but I'd like to see them work it out one day. Don't worry, you'll be ok.

Christ isn't quoted on the subject, but there are a handful of passages in the New Testament (which are inherently implied to be officially consistent with Christ's teachings):

1 Cor 6:9 "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals"

1 Tim 1:9-10 "realizing the fact that (civil) law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers"

Rom 1:26-27 "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error."



Yeah, obliguhl pointed me to the gospel of thomas earlier today, was quite an interesting read, better than most of what made it through the Roman editting process.

Their have been far too many posts to respond to individually - Thanks alot guys!

They have definitely provided me with many thoughts to mull over. I've purchased that "Introducing... Nietszche" book and will read it soon - looks interesting. The first "chink" in my "armor" of Christianity was the theory of evolution, which I am thoroughly convinced of. I realized that for all things science, and pre-jewish history, the Bible IS fallible. I was taught creationism by my biology teacher - Now THAT was a truckload of bullshit! With evolution, it was the well-thought-out evidence presented by science-types that has convinced me. So hopefully an intelligent philosopher can do some more breaking down. Perhaps pharmahausca will be my greatest teacher (will be trying over the weekend).

It's too bad spirituality isn't a testable science - It'd make things a lot easier for me .



EDIT: It is interesting to me that even now I am still stuck thinking about dismantling Christianity. Instead I should be thinking about what Spock's Brain said...

I am sorry, ohayoco, if I've offended you. Indeed, I have not read your earlier posts and did not consider your message in a broader context. Admittedly, I've spent little time studying the history of christianity. I had the priviledge to choose what to believe. As a result I was much more fascinated with sciences.

Reading the bible is very low on my list of priorities and I am not going to tell you that you are wrong. Even if I did, that is not my job. Still, from what I know it seems obvious for me that during its early stages christianity was blatantly populistic and in many aspects remains such. That is why it still remains popular. With my limited experience, most christians i've met are followers of Pascal's wager at best, or are followers of the majority herd at worst.

But even in its earliest an purest form christianity cannot be reconciled with science and humanity development, because they are based on incompatible presuppositions. Some Eastern spiritual practices and mysticism have much better chances. Having no specific religious upbringing when I've encountered psychedelics I've noticed a striking affinity of these experiences with certain eastern spiritual traditions.

Peace and Happiness, my Brother.

I grew up at first in a presbytarian family that lived in the newly developed wealthy neighborhood of deer creek, ks. My parents were in the peak of their prosperity in the business world and I was their continuation of the cycle. My mom taught Sunday school classes just a few streets across the state line and I was her little helper. I had the bible and capatilsm pushed into my little impressionable developing head. We then lost lots o money moved to a small house in a vert busy area over the state line into MO. We then gained some prosperity and moved to a very "perfect village" as we call it sometimes.



My family then converted to being catholic due to my swigging of schools to the catholic school up the road from my public school a few blocks away. The reason I wished to go the catholic school was to wear a uniform ha. So pretty much frommy point o view that was the reason of their conversion. I was then "beaten" with the bible and 8 years of religion courses and bible studies and mass twice a week. I always feared "hell" and so there for I abided by the religions rules.



I recently discovered entheogens and cannabis also did some good for easing the change in my perception. I don't know if I just grew up physically or developed spiritually but my views have changed drastically. For a while I just objected religion of any form. My views were and still are that there is no physical god or heaven. God is just the higher conciousness and truth in us allthat is an open option through use of the sacred spice. I since then have developed my own sort of religion based on that concept and the laws of nature and the universe.

It is a lttile tough for me to explain through a computer but it is pretty much a combination of all religions. I believe modern religion is very skewed and way too simple. Since my discovery of dmt I have completely found myself and my views are clear. The "truth" is god. I had a mushroom trip were I completely understood this but i can't recall certain points. It was a little chaotic. I even wrote that god is the truth In all of us on a piece of artwork in my room. Sorry if any of this unclear at any points. There is just so much to say. Thanks.

I thought if Jesus sees his shadow when he comes out of the cave, we'll have six more weeks of winter.

Pokey

Many of the claims of modern practitioners of spirituality are testable. Things like alternative medicine practices are testable and have in many cases been tested and shown to be wrong (energy healing etc is all bullshit). What happens during meditation is testable and its shown to effect parts of the brain involved with our sense of self as well as other parts.

The more you look at supposedly supernatural phenomenon the more you realize its just natural phenomenon. No magic, reality.

Religion and supernatural spirituality is loaded nonsense don't believe any of it. Skepticism is useful in this regard.

digglover, my advice to you would be to really dedicate some time to really figure this out for yourself...I had doubts when I was younger, but was afraid to pursue them to their logical conclusions until the last several years. It's much harder once you have a devout Catholic wife, 4 kids being raised orthodox Catholic, and an almost entirely Catholic social circle. When I left the Church, it wasn't easy, and it still isn't easy. The social aspect is the hardest (this is main driver of religion for most people anyways). But overcoming the mimetic viral thought patterns that religions program your mind with is very difficult, and it can take a lot of effort to get to the truth at any price. It can, however, be done.

If you want to explore the arguments and evidence against the historical truth of Christianity, I recommend infidel.org and exchristian.net. I'm not an atheist, yet you will find many prominent ex-evangelicals on these websites who have become quite militant and evangelical in their atheism, which in my mind is a conversion from one type of fundamentalism to another; I don't grasp the logic of, "If the Bible is not the inerrant Word of God, then their is no God!" that these guys get into, but the sites are valuable for the critical arguments and scholarship that you can start to become familiar with.

I have spent many, many years studying this stuff, read hundreds of related books over the last 20 years, and it has taken a long time for the cumulative weight of evidence to carry me beyond mere doubt into certainty that the Abrahmic religions are logically incoherent and not literally true. God orders Genocide of every last man, woman and baby at the hands of Joshua. If a person claimed God told him to do that today, we'd declare him a terrorist and kill him for making such threats, let alone carry it out. The genocide may have happened, but using God to justify your evil deeds is a common ploy in organized religion.

I am personally very attracted to Buddhism, though I am not a Buddhist. That, like anything, can be turned into a dogmatic religion, but much of Buddhism avoids that, most of all, the founder. This is one of my favorite quotes:

“Any teaching should not be accepted as true for the following ten reasons: hearsay, tradition, rumor, accepted scriptures, surmise, axiom, logical reasoning, a feeling of affinity for the matter being pondered, the ability or attractiveness of the person offering the teaching, the fact that the teaching is offered by “my” teacher. Rather, the teaching should be accepted as true when one knows by direct experience that such is the case.” ~trans.of Kalama Sutta by Buddhadassa bhikkhu

Good luck to you!

RealAwareness

Such a beautiful quote...


Much Peace and Compassion

Thank you Aegle. This quote appeals to me on so many levels, it has become more of a life motto than simply a quote for me. The way I see it, a God of Reason wouldn't reject those who had the temerity to judge religious propositions concerning God on the basis of...reason! Faith has no inherent virtue, beyond providing a feel-good sort of justification to the willed suspension of the very rational facilities given to us by the creator. To state that a God of reason (and there can be no other kind) requires faith is simply incoherent.

I was raised methodist parents made me go to church. I even taught bible school to younger church members until age 13. I then had a natural interest in science and began to read science,biology on my own time within 6 months I was pissed that I had been brainwashed.

I abandoned the dogma of the church with extreme prejudice. And was preaching Atheism to other kids when I was in eight grade so for me it was not difficult at all to abandon the religious beliefs that were force feed to me as a child. I deeply resent it to this day that I was lied to and often wonder how my life would be if I was taught the truth in my younger childhood years. I was a waste of my mind learning a lie from age six to thirteen. I could have spent that time studying real things that would later help me in my job and my real compassion to help others in REAL ways not fantasy dogma generated by primitives thousands of years ago.

I am still pissed maybe that why I lash out viciously at religion and things I see as false. I wish some one lashed out at my false beliefs as a child because they were a waste of time as I could have spent those early years learning real constructive things.

I have always wanted to learn the truth and figure things out and the church STOLE seven years of my life when I could have been learning constructive things. I must admit I am still bitter about the wasted time.

So no for me once I knew it was trash I threw it all away without a single regret and never once felt guilt or reconsideration of the old dogma I was force fed. I see organized religion as a evil thing intended to control people and give false hope. I will give it credit for invoking the placebo effect in its believers some have been healed. Far more have been billked out of large amounts of money.
Any of course the enormous DEATH TOLL marches on.






Peace Friends

From Burnt:



Yes, and in many cases, they have been shown to work.
That's why many major hospitals have Reiki practitioners: http://www.thehealingpages.com/Articles/ReikiinHospitals.html

Back to the religion discussion:

Might we consider extraterrestrials or inderdimensionals were involved?

Probably used their mind control rays to convince us they were gods before raping our women and polluting the gene pool, then whizzing off to bother some other unsuspecting primitives.

Or something like that.

I'm split on this issue, don't mean to offend anybody, and think it would be cool if we were alien spawn. According to the fringe, there's some unidentifiable strands in our DNA makeup...http....htmI'm a Zacharia Stichen fan,http...com/, have read a lot about ancient flying ships in India,http...html and see many parallels in belief systems around the world which might mean folks were in contact with each other from very early times. Researching these, and other, wild ideas is how I was able to extracate my self from my Methodist upbringing.

Seems to me, God is wherever you find Him....or Her.