Hello everyone,


I write today in the aim of initiating discussion on something which should be of utmost importance to those of us engaged in serious exploration.

There have been volumes written regarding psychoactive chemicals and their use as a device for understanding the self, and, for those who are more inquisitive, as tools for having a glimpse at what has been termed "the ultimate truth" by various individuals throughout history. As an explorer and observer of the self and the world, I have some serious concerns regarding whether psychoactive "consciousness expanding drugs" truly are useful guideposts, or whether they deceivingly show us fabrications of our own petty, shoddy conditioned minds which can never on their own grasp the unfathomable truth. Furthermore, my chief concern is that if they truly are a deception (and a cunning one indeed), then they would invariably not only dull the mind further but take us on a grand detour on our path to truth riddled with dead ends and pitfalls. Now, when I state that they may dull the mind, I do not mean in the least sense that they make us stupid or reduce our problem solving capability. Instead, perhaps they simply replace old conditioning with something novel in the form of altered consciousness and heightened awareness (and the torrent of useless thinking involved in trying to understand or integrate), which is itself a sort of slight of hand or carrot if you will for us to chase.

Because our consciousness is expanded when under the effects of these chemicals, are we diverting our full attention and awareness away from observing ourselves and the world, something so unfathomable that it is beyond consciousness, beyond mind, and beyond any understanding and therefor cannot be analyzed but simply observed and lived? No doubt we are made aware under the influence of such chemicals of a vast, previously unknown realm of perception, but is it merely another illusion? Of course, speculating on the nature of hyperspace is an insignificant, pointless endeavor but whether it is a help (and so far it has been for me personally for introspective analysis) or hindrance in the observation of truth demands attention.

I would be very grateful to receive any honest and sincere input from others on the matter in the aim of promoting insightful discussion on a topic that is of fundamental importance to the serious explorer.

[EDIT]: Please keep in mind I would like to hear your personal opinions and not those of Terrence McKenna, Allan Watts, Ghandi, the Pope, etc!

Just throwing a little fuel into your fire....take it as the simple ramblings they are.

In terms of the value/merit/truth of the experience I think that we will always (in this life) be handicapped. The notion of the Maya illusionary state of reality, to me at least, is somewhat based on the fact that we will always be experiencing/knowing it through our flawed and imperfect physical tools for embodiment and perception.

Which is to say that we will always be limited in our ability to comprehend the (Big T)Truth of the REALity by our squishy little brains, eyes, ears, so on and so forth, regardless of our use or non-use of any given substance. (maybe why it's often so difficult to remember all the details once we return-???)

That being said I tend there is always the question of "Is it real?" - which I think to some extent your question leans towards...I know your are digging a bit deeper than simply this but I feel the basic undertone is there...plus I'm just rambling so ignore what you like

I am torn as to whether it is a truly external happening being implanted or if it is something a hidden more powerful part of my squishy is cooking up. In the end I don't think it matters....either way I feel the experience has merit and potential for interpretation.

Quoting "Otis" from "House of 1,000 Corpses"


If it is something external and "real" as it may be termed then the simple fact that there is something there waiting and willing to even attempt this level of deception is an incredible discovery into the nature of our universe....that is IF deception is the ultimate intent of these entities.

If it is only an internal manifestation of some sub-conscious waking dream state then the only deception at work is simply due to my own limited squishie's ability make sense of it all and is no more false than any other sensory perception or state. The difference being that I am now to, at will, command a bubbling to surface of some deepest sub-conscious imagery/symbolism/vision. It would seem to me that this alone is of some merit in terms of greater understanding ourselves and our perceived relationship with the universe.

In any case I think there is value in CERTAIN forms of exploration....sure we can exploit hedonistic sensual base experiences for little more than a sensory gratification but we will likely learn very little in the attempt....at least I didn't learn much from it:evil:

At the very root I think I would have to say that in either case if we experience it and many of us share similar experiences then we meet the qualifications of reality being a shared hallucination and as such...whether internal or external in origin it is as real as reality.

So we are experiencing more of reality than the "unmodified" mind so there is the *potential* for greater growth.

Thus ends my rant....take it for what you like.

Interesting thread, Eternity.

My own view is that the greatest benefit derived is that we have an altered perspective, and a changed awareness. So for me, it is very much about living a better life here in this density. I am more aware of my actions, thoughts, behaviours and their consequences. I try to concentrate more on relationships. And I am very aware of my intent, and how when focused, things can be changed, obstacles worked through and so on.

This hasd all been shown to me very directly in Hyperspace; I have been told very clearly to resolve issues by myself, in my reality. It shows me problems and the root thereof, but it is very much my job to do something about it and "live better" right here.

So no, I personally don't think this is a distraction or illusion; I don't believe this is false or misleading information, as the fundamental outcomes and direction are in my mind clearly improvements, and result in better awareness.

I can only speak for spice, though.

Abandon your concerns. These are just more ego baggage to carry along your path.
The plants and entheogenic medicines are not here to deceive you. Only human beings and yourself fall within this category.
These alkaloids greatly accelerate the central nervous system,
allowing you clear things out, see them in a different light.


Don't be overwhelmed because you can't figure everything out.
If you think exploration and evolution are "useless" than so be it, that is your opinion. It is definitely not mine.



I surely am not. Are you? Every time I go withinity I meditate on our situation and what I can do to better it. Why believe we are dealing with anything that is beyond what we are?
Sounds like a cop-out, to me.



This doesn't seem right to me at all. It sounds like you just have no idea what's going on so you're trying to cope with that. And that's OK. MANY of us are!
IMHO, it is FAR from insignificant! I advise people to stop having these silly beliefs! They are dead ends and will lead you right back to where you started.
I keep my beliefs open and they continue to grow and stretch in ways I never thought possible.

To address the title of this thread, are we going about this the right way?
I know in my heart that I am.
There are many people who I read on here that seem to be just getting into something a hell of a lot larger than they can handle...but the neurotransmission seems to have ways of showing a person what they need, giving them tests, and stages.
And like I always say, everyone is bringing back a single piece of the puzzle. No one will ever figure this out alone. It will take a collective understanding, like we have here on the nexus, to progress our understanding of hyperspace.

;]

You suggest that entheogens “deceivingly show us fabrications of our own petty, shoddy conditioned minds which can never on their own grasp the unfathomable truth”, but chemicals are not capable of deceit. If deceit is a part of an entheogenic experience, who is the deceiver? I think that if you (or anyone, not singling you out) are being deceived, then you yourself are the deceiver.

You suggest that entheogens may “take us on a grand detour on our path to truth riddled with dead ends and pitfalls”. If you believe that you are on a path to truth, then maybe this is possible. I don’t believe that I’m on a path to truth. I’m on a path, and it will take me wherever it takes me. I believe that we can, and should, seek meaning and purpose in this life, for this life, but our ultimate purpose and the ultimate meaning of it all is beyond our capacity to understand.

Excellent responses so far everyone.




You make an excellent point, syn. I would like to ask you, however, what makes you say that we should strive to "know" the unfathomable? Also, I would like to hear what you think about the idea that the very act of comprehension ensures that you will never see the truth. That, as soon as you try to think about it, to analyze it, to form a concept or idea of it or do anything else other than give it your full awareness and attention it will slip through your fingers and you will miss the point. In fact, perhaps it can only be felt when you stop trying to use your mind to understand it?



And



You must excuse me, for many times in my attempts to communicate clearly my thoughts I am less than successful. I am not insisting that the plants themselves, or any chemical actively deceives a person. Instead, I was postulating that perhaps they are simply beautiful, captivating decorations on something that is of itself more beautiful and captivating than any of these things combined. Something that we can only feel once we have identified all excess baggage, including the chemicals themselves.



Once again, you must excuse my for not being clear. I never meant to lead you astray by giving you the impression that I am overwhelmed or confused. In fact, (and now you must allow me to give my feeble opinion on the matter for what it is worth) what I am pointing at is that we are so conditioned that, even when we believe that we are making "progress" and "evolving", we have missed the point once again having been tricked more subtly, but tricked none the less, by our conditioning. For there can be no uselessness, since this implies its opposite, usefulness. And in this relation of opposites, space is created for the mind to engage in comparison and conflict. For example, "DMT makes me into a better person". This implies that one were less "better" before the taking DMT, which implies that there is a state of "betterness" that one must achieve. This very "betterness" that one strives for is the construct of the mind which creates the illusionary space between the Now and the imagined Future outcome of "betterness". In this space there is room for conflict, possible feelings of inadequacy, anticipation, expectation, disatisfaction with the current self, etc, all of which are mind-born. I say that in order to feel the unfathomable truth, we must not compare, analyze, strive, seek, evolve, or what have you for these are all of the mind, which as stated earlier by syn, being limited by physical biology, cannot ever approach the unfathomable. In this, DMT may lead us astray in "thinking" that we are progressing and becoming better, when in fact our mind is just playing a different game. But what lies when we cease to compare, to seek, to think, to progress, to hope? What happens when we simply observe ourselves, our actions, our habits, our thoughts, and our environment? This I was hoping you might enlighten my simple, curious person. Perhaps there is no path to truth, neither with DMT, nor philosophy, nor anything else. Perhaps it simply IS?





You are absolutely correct house, thank you for clarifying this because it is very important. I have absolutely no idea what is going on whatsoever. Furthermore, I choose to extend this "not knowing" beyond DMT and into the totality of life itself. I maintain that knowing in the traditional sense of the word is itself a crutch that we human beings use for various purposes which are beyond the scope of this topic at this time. Similarly, I try to hold NO beliefs, but simply observe and explore the world and everything in it as if I was reborn every instant fresh and new, free to see things as if it was the first time, free from past experience. And this is why I fear that holding onto DMT experiences and lessons simply gives us more experiential baggage to mask our true innocence - the innocence of a newborn into a magnificent cosmos. I propose that it is only with this innocence that we are free to feel the "unfathomable".

Seekers are almost never finders.

Pokey

I do not think people need many psychedelic experiences. I believe that the benefit is in experiencing changes in consciousness that open the mind to other possibilities by being able to view the world from a different perspective. One then is forced to question whether one's previous worldview is valid, and can become less closed-minded. Taking the blinkers off, to make us think more creatively in sober life.

They can be good for emotional healing too by getting out of negative attitudes etc, but that's not your concern here.

I am personally dubious that psychedelics could give some sort of enlightenment that transforms you into a sage or all-knowing buddha. Other than a few old stories, or unproven anecdotes, it hasn't happened to anyone yet... or at least I've never met anyone who has achieved this.

The trap is that some people choose to believe that what is happening during the trip is real. This is not the psychedelic's fault, this is possibly just the person desperate to believe in something because they don't want to die... or are even just bored and like life a bit more mystical. I'm not saying they're wrong or right, only that choosing to believe something is not intellectually rigorous. Work with probable assumptions, not beliefs, if you want to be an intellectual. Of course there's nothing wrong with choosing to be a believer instead, if it makes you happy. It's difficult to mix being a believer with being an intellectual though, too many assumptions will leak into your investigations.

If you really want to understand the world, I think it is beneficial to try different psychedelics to achieve different mindsets. Then study philosophy and science. Even better, learn about them first before taking psyches. If you've got as much as you think you're going to get out of psyches, but still want to know more, then turn to science theory.

Seeking is all well and good, but remember to enjoy life at the same time. This is not necessarily a dress rehearsal!

heck yes, you are awesome! i Agreee fully. ALl you can be is in the awe of it all because words cannot explain it becuase it has no vocabulary for it. express it in froms of art, or in sex or something. and just understand your inner reality. not the one that is view with your physical eyes.

Nice post.

The only obvious big truth for SWIM that hasn't turned out to be deceiving that SWIM has directly learned and experienced from psychedelics is that changing our neurochemistry changes our conscious experience.

SWIM feels that ideas such as we are all one for example are somewhat deceiving truths that many users of psychedelics including SWIM have felt or thought. The brain actively creates the sense of self that we experience and if psychedelics or any technique can inhibit that aspect of our consciousness then of course we would feel as if we were at one with the cosmos. This has been tested and observed with deep meditation and neuroimaging.

Personal revelations are a somewhat different story SWIM isn't talking about those although some can certainly turn out to be correct they can also turn out to be false when thought about later.

There is a lot to learn from psychedelics but there is also plenty of room for delusion and deception. I do think its possible to separate some of the real knowledge from deception but it depends what kind of truths you are talking about.

Let's say I'm searching for something measurable.

We now know psychedelics don't necessarily improve "ethic behavior" or create "empathic individuals".
We know they can improve creativity and cure some diseases... but that would be just a part of what they actually do.

I think it's pretty obvious to everyone here that psychedelics alter consciousness... but what about it? Why is that important in practical terms?

I'm just trying to keep it simple and not very "weird" (as you would probably say)


What makes them different from watching movies or jumping out of a plane? (In practical terms)

For some people they can improve empathy for others and the environment around them. Whether or not that empathy stays or is deserving is another matter. But from a practical view point that can be beneficial for some people. As can psychological well being that can result. It can also be a bonding experience with friends or loved one.

Yeah... watching Titanic can be a bonding experience too, and planting a tree can improve empathy with the environment.

Is there anything else (in your opinion) that humanity can benefit from psychedelics, other than things hippies already said?

(I like hippies... don't get me wrong)

Great discussion my friends, I think we are all making excellent progress in coming to the root of this issue.



If we are to speak of altered states of consciousness in general, then going to the movies, extreme sports, playing music, having sex, and ingesting psychoactive chemicals can all certainly be grouped into this "category". Now, perhaps we should ask whether all of these things could be used to effectively explore the self. Let us look at the example of going to the movies. When one goes to the movies, he of course steps out of his normal state of mind and immerses himself (hopefully if the movie is good) in the film's story. For the duration of the movie, he is observing the film and identifying with characters, imagining outcomes, etc. When the movie comes to an end, he leaves and quickly returns to his old state of mind. We must ask then, over the course of the film, was the individual exploring his psyche? After the film, is he using his altered state of consciousness as a device for self-examination? Or has he immersed himself in something outside himself?

Now, let us take the example of the psychoactive chemical user. It is of no doubt, I believe, that when under the effects of the drug the user is in an altered state of consciousness. After sufficient time (after the effects wear off) the user is still left in a different state of mind than before ingesting the chemical. Now, if I may speak from experience, the intense nature of the experience launches me into introspective analysis. Personally, I find that it shakes the very foundations of my perception more so than mountaineering or playing music. During the experience I might understand the futility of resisting, and how it makes a trip worse. How the only solution is to just let go and surrender. This lesson applies to life as well. I learn that trying to control life is useless and a waste of energy because it cannot be done, resulting only in more resistance, friction, and conflict. This realization brings about inner peace. Another more obvious example is after witnessing a mushroom taking over your mind and doing what it will with you, you are tempted to ask: If the mushroom is making my mind go crazy, then who is the 'me' that is noticing this event?

When we become aware of our self and begin self-gnosis, we are in a much better position to control our behavior and effect right action. However, the present state of humanity is the result of individuals slaving away under the tyrannical rule of their conditioned mind, ignorant of their own ignorance. In this sense, psychoactive chemicals have the potential to catapult individuals into self-analysis and therefor to become aware of their ignorance.

The danger exists in the deification of the drug, that is to say, when it is perceived not only as a tool, but some holy, sacred object... Anything that serves as a device to initiate self-examination is valuable, but when it becomes something more than just a tool, it leads the user to ritual, dogma, and beliefs. At this point it has the opposite effect of helping you, and simply launches you into a different set of conditioning.

Eternity,

So to put in a simple way (not that I believe it should be always simple)... you are saying that psychedelics help us explore our self.

However... analyzing your arguments... it appears to me that you are underestimating movies and overestimating psychedelics.
I think the long term effect of a good movie or good sex or good meditation can be compared to psychedelics.
I think the experience itself of psychedelics is unique. I cannot think of anything similar to a rich psychedelic experience.


Now:

"There is a wealth of information built into us... tucked away in the genetic material in every one of our cells... without some means of access, there is no way even to begin to guess at the extent and quality of what is there. The psychedelic drugs allow exploration of this interior world, and insights into its nature." - Sasha Shulgin


So...

What is that information Shulgin is talking about? Are some of those insights delusions, as burnt suggests?

For example, imagine that on a psychedelic trip you hear your "DNA" speaking to you things like: "You are an angel".

...that information / insight / inner whisper is useless under the actual social context... and maybe is not true at all.


So... what is the use of the experience?

Of course, myself (clouds) can say thing like:

- "It expands your perception to spiritual realms"

- "It can help you understand reality in a more integral way"

or

- "It can help you to comprehend your relationship with the divine (whatever that means to you)"


BUT...

It's subjective as it can be. There is no agreement on what is spiritual, what is reality and what is divine.

so... I'm trying to find arguments that help me understand what is the practical use.


For example:

- "Psychedelics can help humanity evolve certain senses" (LETS PROVE IT... LETS GET THE NUMBERS, LETS GET THE EVIDENCE)

- "Psychedelics can enhance intelligence" (LETS PROVE IT... LETS GET THE NUMBERS, LETS GET THE EVIDENCE)

- "Psychedelics can help humanity communicate with other types of beings" (LETS PROVE IT... LETS GET THE NUMBERS, LETS GET THE EVIDENCE)


That's the kind of things I would LOVE to see happening. More than philosophical talk, I would love to see evidence of why psychedelics can be important for humanity. (I know in my hearth that they are tools for something that can be measured and verifiable, but I just don't know how to explain it.... or prove it for that matter)

I hope I made myself clear, since it's not the easiest thing to do when talking about this weird things.

Much Respect

So the ultimate purpose is to be happy?

Why are we doing anything, really?

When I'm in a bad mood (like today), all I see is self-deception.



Another target: not being tricked. For what reason? Truth? What is that?

To me it seems impossible to find a good enough (provable) basis for our lives. In the end, it's all standing on some kind of faith. And if this is a given, unchangeable fact, then we perhaps should accept it as it is and live according to our own given program. (But what if the program is changeable? What if it can be optimized? blablabla. there is something in us that cannot stop making this noise.)

Eternity built this structure:



after he demolished it:



So what? How can we think when we are not allowed to think? Or shall we think without thinking bad about our thinking?

I say fuck it. Just let it be. But this includes the pain-generator and therefore all these attempts to get rid of it.

Turn it off please, it's becoming too much.

Haha, thank you for pointing that out clouds. Perhaps I am assigning to much value to one thing and not enough to the other. Now, to address your statement "you are saying that psychedelics help us explore our self". When I speak of psychedelics, I must invariably speak in terms of my own experience. They help ME explore my self, for now (let us not forget I am hardly experienced enough to have good knowledge of these substances. Instead I try to remain open minded as much as I can). Now, and let me know if you disagree, it is possible to misuse such a powerful tool. And this misuse is the core of what I am addressing here. How can we define it? Certainly we have already spoken of using psychedelics recreationally and how that can cause problems over the long term. But what about developing beliefs regarding the mechanics of the cosmos and so called hyperspace? Are we not throwing out one set of beliefs and simply adopting another, more fantastic set?

Thank you for indicating that other things such as meditation can be as beneficial to us in the long run . This reminds us once again that psychedelics are not a panacea to help us explore ourselves. I ask then, this miracle cure mentality, does it benefit us, or lead us into dysfunction?



You make some excellent points clouds. It is very difficult to provide hard evidence of the benefits of psychedelic drug use due to the unfortunate taboo and government ban prevalent in mainstream society at this time. In order to accomplish such a task, we may have to follow the footsteps of Dr. Strassman and earlier researchers in setting up clinical studies. These studies would include, I think, follow ups of volunteers over a period of many years to attempt to discern whether the ingestion of the psychedelics had any positive, long lasting effects. I will quote one of my replies from another reply that summarizes my beliefs on the positive effects of psychedelics in order to try to answer your question from a philosophical point of view:



Allow me to add that that it is my belief that when an individual ceases to be ignorant of his ignorance and begins to watch and understand his thoughts and what brings them about, he will no longer react to them blindly. Then, having ceased to operate blindly following his many dysfunctional desires and insecurities, I believe that the human being will be in a better position to effect right action in society, in relationships, and in the environment. Psychedelics are but one means to initiate this process in the beginning.




Thank you for participating in our discussion cellux, I appreciate it very much. You raise some very good points!

I would like to take the opportunity to correct myself because once again, I believe I have not been clear in my communicating, an affliction of mine I am trying very hard to cure! I would like to clarify that I do not propose any structure, or any method of any sort. I insist in fact that this is one of the very core problems with the way human beings go about interpreting the world. It is not possible to understand when following someone else's method or philosophy because you are then taking his word for granted and following an outside authority. When you go about your life on the grounds of second hand information, you become a second hand human being. Instead I propose letting go of everything. Simply "look". There is no method to looking, no one needs to tell you how to look, you just do it. If I am not making any sense please correct me and I will try to clarify because I think this is important.

A for the thinking and not thinking, I understand the frustration it brings. I was stuck in this paradox for quite some time and believe me I was feeling a little tormented, to say the least. I cannot provide you with an answer or way out because only you can do that. I can ask you, however, and you seem to be know the answer from what I gather in your writing, what happens when you stop trying? What happens when you let go of trying not to think, and just accepting the fact that this is how it is? What happens then when you simply look? When you simply let go of trying, stop resisting your thoughts and accepting that this is how it is, and when you begin simply looking at what you are doing, what you are thinking, what happens? I would be curious to know your results.

When I manage to do that - not through my will (doing it through the will is just another blind alley) but by either exhausting myself or by some "divine intervention" - then I get into a sort of equilibrium where I can rest in a peaceful lightness until the first tides of the next episode arrive.

My life seems to be a big obsessive-compulsive neurosis. Hopefully once it will come to a grinding halt, when the mechanism cannot bear the weight of itself anymore and breaks down.

(I know there are theories about being an observer of the tides and being them at the same time - both an individual and eternity - but these are just tales now. And when they are not, that's only for a short time. And when that's over, I'm more miserable than I was before because I know how much I had lost.)

QFT

And to the extent that ignorance is blindness, I am reminded of the fact that frogs' eyes do not make micro-saccades (they do not constantly move minutely back-and-forth like ours). The result of this is that they are blind to anything that doesn't move -- their retinal cells become saturated or habituated.

Psychedelics make things visible to me in the same sense. I am not saying the actual content of what I 'see' on psychedelics is real or important -- only that they help to dishabituate me to the here and now, to my self, to my assumptions, to my ignorance.

Thanks for this discussion Eternity. I appreciate much of what you have said.